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From:
rdtrn@torithoughts.org
Date:
Wed, 17 May 2000 18:48:11 -0700
Subject:
RDT Right Now #1019
To:
"Recipient.List.Suppressed":;;@luis.yourwebhost.com
Do not hit reply to unsubscribe. To unsub, send a message to:
<rdtrn-request@torithoughts.org>
with "unsubscribe" in the subject and body.
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Really Deep Thoughts Right Now Volume 00 : Issue #1019
.
o - O - O - O - O - O - O - O - o
. o o .
o o
O "Thoughts right now... O
o What will become of me, o
o Become of her, become of we?" o
. o o .
O O
O - o - o - o - o - o - o - o - O
o .
o
o
o
Tori Amos, "Thoughts"
In this issue:
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RICKY!!!! [ John Bragazzi <wasserman@operamail. ]
making mountains out of molehills ag [ Lisa071573@aol.com ]
Installment 3...the boy has issues.. [ "Spencer John" <molasses84@hotmail. ]
reply to Beth [ "Jorge Fernandez" <jorge518@bellsou ]
just replies [ becky wall <rxw191@psu.edu> ]
jorge [ becky wall <rxw191@psu.edu> ]
re: tempest [ violet@torithoughts.org ]
on flamewars and woodwork [ Abbe J Cohen <abbe@MIT.EDU> ]
Re: blood and oysters [ Beth Winegarner <echoes@atlantic.de ]
Thank you [ "Glenn Jones" <earth@nru.com.au> ]
juan juan bo bon [ "Carmen" <carmeenaska@earthlink.net ]
minority rules [ "Carmen" <carmeenaska@earthlink.net ]
___________________________________________________________________
___________________________________________________________________
Some Of Today's Really Deep Thoughts:
"There's only one koba, and he'll be back as soon as he
passes the bar (and I'll bet it's the first bar he's ever
passed, too)." -- John
"I do believe the loss of my balls would be equally (if not
more) traumatic as the loss of my fingernails..." -- Spencer
"I think the list is more than just its frequent posters."
-- abbe
"If something irks you, how about mailing the person who
typed it first? Hopefully a misunderstanding will be cleared
up without flames appearing on the lsit." -- Lavs
"I'm just a wise ass. Don't mind me." -- Carmen
___________________________________________________________________
___________________________________________________________________
Missed a digest? Pick up a copy at the RDTRN archives:
http://www.torithoughts.org
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Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 03:03:47 -0400
From: John Bragazzi <wasserman@operamail.com>
To: Really Deep Thoughts <rdtrn@torithoughts.org>
Subject: RICKY!!!!
Arija, I hate to break it to you, but the "Opinions are like assholes
and everybody's got one" line is older than Salt or Pepa or
Spinderella. Or even me. :-)
OTOH, I totally agree with your point about the "warm fuzzies" thing
at camp. Something like that is only really meaningful when it's real
and spontaneous, not an enforced going-around-the-circle thing. And,
since I was raised a Quaker, I've had a *lot* of experience with
having to convey warm fuzzy thoughts when I was feeling murderous
ones.
Simon said:
>lecy, you've got some explaining to do... :) (old TV joke there)
That should be "'splainin'" and it conjures up a really funny image
(but maybe that's just me).
>a few steps up from that, put said rotten food in the target's car.
Harlan Ellison once had a disagreement with somebody (hard to imagine
that, huh?) and mailed said person a dead rat. Cross-country. 4th
class book rate.
>sorry to see koba go- jorge, you'll have to be a bigger smartass to
>compensate for koba's absence ;)
Well, apparently someone other than Jorge will have to fill that gap.
Besides, there's only one koba, and he'll be back as soon as he passes
the bar (and I'll bet it's the first bar he's ever passed, too).
I believe wild kobas are migratory beasts.
>julie- thanks for the correction on my posting about lolita (correct
>age in the book was 12, not 14 as I had said).
Ah, I thought the gap was wider than you had said, but hadn't bothered
to look it up. It's especially noticeable in the movie where Humbert
is sitting on the edge of the bed, just having told Lolita that her
mother was dead, and you hear her crying and then she comes into the
room and sits in his lap and he holds her. It looked like Sue Lyon was
about the same size as James Mason. :-)
> *** Cry Hammock, And Let Slip The Dogs Of Work digest ***
Since I'm writing this at work, this one resonated for me.
As B/4,
John
np: inner bimbo by bionic finger
===========================================================
www.u-town.com (hypertext fiction and movie reviews)
"you can break the bloody glass,
but you can't hold back the weather" (anon)
===========================================================
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Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 04:04:18 EDT
From: Lisa071573@aol.com
To: rdtrn@torithoughts.org
Subject: making mountains out of molehills again
blah blah blah
Simon: [so lisa, no tori-esque song about the departure of your secretary? ;)
]
heh :) no... not really.. just happy to be rid of her! I still can't believe
she has to spend 30 days in jail.. shit.
simon still: [well, Party of Five is in reruns on the Lifetime channel, and I
do believe
there are some episodes you might be interested in.... :) ]
oh shit! dammit! now i have start watching Lifetime :P I did miss the Neve
kiss the first time around too...
heh.. it's really funny.. the guy I picked up at the wedding has been calling
me.. he's amazingly cool (which is always nice - to realize that the person
you just had a weekend with is actually a cool person, in addition to a good
fuck...) I was just talking to him and he told me he reads.. I practically
swooned on the phone.. someone who likes books and is a darwinist - I love
it.. too bad he's not a girl. *sigh* but at least he's up for threesomes..
something to look forward to ;)
ohmygoodness.. I went to this cool little house concert to see Allette Brooks
(who is sooo cute and a terrific folkster) and there was another girl
performing who had written a song to the tune of a Fiddler on the Roof song
(you know, the Sunrise, Sunset one..) about being queer.. it went something
like "baby dykes grow up to be big dykes" it was quite funny :P
simon again: [your cats are ok right? that must have been scary *hug*]
yep the kitty cats are cool.. it was damn scary :( thanks for the hug - you
are so fucking cool :)
simon (heehee): [now why do I think I know the real reason you like the idea
of all-women
colleges? ;)]
lol :) yeah.. since I've realized I'm bi I've started to appreciate women's
colleges a whole hell of a lot more.. ;) but the gay thing aside, my sister
did really have a very positive experience at Hollins so I really do think
they're pretty cool.
so um. my too sense.
I think this whole thing is being blown way out of proportion.. there have
been a few mean-spirited posts of late but I think that's to be expected -
sadly, yes. I personally try not flame (no, really...) but stupidity pisses
me off so occasionally I have to shoot my mouth off.. I don't know.. but I
really don't see the big problem that others are seeing..
but that's just me.
now I gotta go to bed before we all turn into pumpkins
Lisa
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Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 18:23:32 EST
From: "Spencer John" <molasses84@hotmail.com>
To: rdtrn@torithoughts.org
Subject: Installment 3...the boy has issues...
Well, folks,
as promised, here is a little group interaction, a little rite of
reply...there has certainly been plenty of shit going on...
I'm feeling really clever rite about now, seeing as I just figured out I
could open two windows in hotmail, and cut and paste bits from rdtrn in one
into my composition in the other...now am I a genius or what =)
John K., I am totally like yr no. 1. fan rite now...
(absolutely no 'misery' connotations *evil grin*)
I saw the broadside regarding 'parents of a gay child', authorship Brad, and
I was gearing up to reply, when I find your reply in 1007. I almost cried
reading it...I feel so lucky, living in a relatively tolerant society, but
hearing what has happened to people just because they feel a certain
way...it makes me so sad. Even when it isn't dramatic, when it is a
commonplace failure to treat someone equally. Especially when they are
things I feel too, and knowing what the old suppression routine almost drove
me to. You know, the more I talk to people about sexuality, the less I feel
alone. You rock =) and you even listen to ray of lite =)
And as Doug pointed out, John seems to be quite the name du jour in the gay
community rite now...Parents, add that to your list...buy him pink...send
him to ballet...call him John =) I'm certainly in esteemed company =)
But we should still make room for Tait =) Even tho I can never find him in
the St Cloud MN room at gay.com ... =( Hon, if you ever want to seek me out,
you can find me inner sydney 1, nsw, australia. And I like your idea about
the club =)
In theory (often not in practice) parental love is supposed to be
unconditional. That means accepting your child for what they are, not your
expectations of what you want them to be.
Julie Libes you also rock =) And I can testify to the fucked-upness you were
referring to...
My two cents on the 'to declaw or not to declaw' debate:
It seems to me a little bit of a contradiction if someone is willing to put
a cat through whatever pain and distress is involved in losing ones sexual
organs, but to object to removing claws on the same grounds...I know that as
a responsible cat owner, the 'spay' is the rite thing to do...too many dead
kittens, too many feral cats, too many beautiful native australian birds
slayed =( ... But fellas, help me out here...I do believe the loss of my
balls would be equally (if not more) traumatic as the loss of my
fingernails...
Just a comment =)
>From Jorge:
>>Mariah Carey is just a Derek Jeter/Luis Miguel/half the population of the
>>eastern U.S.- loving ho. If that doesn't get her to post, I don't know
>>what will. ;)
I didn't know Mariah was on RDTRN ! I LOVE YOU MARIAH ! Mariah was my first
musical love, but that was during my teenybopper stage, so hopefully it can
be forgiven =) My progression was Mariah... Madonna ...Tori. Obviously my
musical taste has improved with time ;-)
But Jorge was talking about leaving, along with Venezia...now, obviously
something is wrong when such prominent members and frequent posters are
calling their place here into question. In an environment of mutual respect,
which this is supposed to be kids, no-one would feel threatened, people
would be secure in their position here. One of the things I like best about
RDTRN is the diversity of people here, the richness of their various
experiences, and the general good humour with which we usually conduct
ourselves...
As for suggestions...maybe a warning system...as in maybe a 'take it outside
fellas' from Violet should a discussion become too heated... Just for the
general aura of being accepted that tori, for me, at least partially
represents...arguments can be enjoying and stimulating, but it degenerates
into personal abuse and when people are actively hurt by what is said, maybe
someone should step in...
Just a thought =)
Bethey, congrats on your results =) You are now officially unique (as if you
weren't already =) I also thought what you had to say about hostility
directed at strangers was very pertinent...You always have an interesting
perspective on any given issue...tho, I'm not sure how I feel about the
biological mother issue...I'm assuming she wouldn't be able to provide the
same quality of care...shit, what do I know...I'll find myself a functional
family and get back to you =)
I have been discoursing far too long, meanwhile...I have a life to get back
to. But you guys make it richer =)
* blushing *
Loves to you all (even Brad),
Spencer J.
Oh, and Christ is not the enemy =)
________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
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Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 07:11:30 -0400
From: "Jorge Fernandez" <jorge518@bellsouth.net>
To: "RDTRN" <rdtrn@torithoughts.org>
Cc: "Beth Winegarner" <echoes@atlantic.devin.com>
Subject: reply to Beth
Beth Winegarner wrote:
"Jorge is one of
the very few people on this list who has, repeatedly, jumped head-first into
arguments with others and once he does that, he gets a kind of deathgrip on
people -- they can't get out, and the more they struggle, the more he chomps
down. It's either go limp or leave."
I'd like to know, at one point, I suddenly went on trial on this list, as I
don't understand why we seem to be having posts attempting to rationalize my
past behavior, or whatever it is Beth is trying to do. Beth said some nice
things later in her post, and I appreciate that, but Beth 1) had no real
rhyme or reason why to write this post, 2) did not bother to ask me, "Jorge,
why do you think Bethany said this or that about you? Isn't there a picture
of you and her on her website?" she just went and "commended" someone for
making comments which were extremely hurtful without knowing a thing about
the context those words were in. Let me ask, is this not the type of stuff
we've been writing about, saying we need to control in ourselves in order to
make this list better? It sure looks like it to me.
i'm not going to comment any further on the sudden attempts to bash my
character and fingerpoint on this list. apparantly, we still have a lot
farther to go on this list if we're truly intent on "salvaging" it. we're
not even beginning to tread water yet.
Jorge Fernandez
jorge518@bellsouth.net
jorge518@yahoo.com
http://members.xoom.com/whorehay/home.html
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Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 10:28:07 -0400
From: becky wall <rxw191@psu.edu>
To: rdtrn@torithoughts.org
Subject: just replies
Spencer J, great poem. I really did enjoy it.
Mermaid, I disagree with you entirely. You seem to say in your post that
the "newer" fans (not age wise--but amount of tori liking wise) are making
the old fans move over. First off, I hope this doesn't turn into a "I
haved loved Tori for 123 years so I'm better thing." Secondly, I consider
myself a mid-ground Tori fan. I wasn't around during Little Earthquakes,
but I was into her during Under the Pink. And I have to say that there are
just as many new EWF that I like as old. SO personally, I don't think the
bigger fan base is hurting the list. Look at Brad Schultz, he is as old as
the oldest here and I don't think that ANYONE would say that he wasn't
causing at least SOME of the problems here. Enough on that.
Frankly, I think the problem has solved itself. There haven't been flames
in the last few digests because we have all been trying to solve the
problem. Perhaps we just needed a problem so we could combine together to
solve it. But now that there isn't fighting, I suggest we try again. Lets
not spend too much time trying to solve a problem that may be solved.
People suggested respect, thinking before you post and generally more
web-niceness. Ok, I agree with that. Lets try it out. As I said, digest
1012 was great.
Well I start back at Red Lobster today. A working woman again.
Hugs
Becky
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Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 10:39:12 -0400
From: becky wall <rxw191@psu.edu>
To: rdtrn@torithoughts.org
Subject: jorge
when i read bethany's post i was curious about jorge's essay.
jorge, come one now. I can understand why you were upset. Venice I can
understand why you were upset even more. But as I said before, you aren't
the type of people who let one person get to you. You know there are
people like that in the world and if you let them get to you, then what.
Also, Jorge you say that no one backed you up. Well I seem to remember a
few months ago me backing Bethey up and getting nine and a half million
letters about how Bethey can defend herself. Many people spoke up about
Brad. Plain and simple. I got tired of the anti-Brad stuff by the end.
People did care.
Ok, I still have work
me
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Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 08:05:16 -0700
From: violet@torithoughts.org
To: rdtrn@torithoughts.org
Subject: re: tempest
Juan wrote:
>I read what you're saying Violet, but I don't know what to suggest.
>I don't know how guidelines work. Because we can come up with ones
>that we think are great and still have people not following them.
That's true, and that's okay. You can't let the fear of that possibility
keep you from moving forward. The only person any of us can worry about
is our own self. What other people do is their problem and their choice
and is completely beyond your control. That is one of the fundamental
truths of life.
You cannot base change on other people and on what they might or might not
do. Base it on yourself, on your own honor and principles, and you'll be
fabulous. :)
Guidelines work by guiding you through situations, often situations
that are difficult. Where rules dictate "DO THIS!" and are controlling,
guidelines suggest "try this..." and are supportive.
Violet
xoxox
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Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 12:41:50 -0400 (EDT)
From: Abbe J Cohen <abbe@MIT.EDU>
To: rdtrn@torithoughts.org
Subject: on flamewars and woodwork
hi to all the folks who I haven't seen post in forever! now I'm not
the only ancient delurker.
As someone who kind of delurked in order to respond (without flames
but with an attempt to actually have discussion on the topics at
hand... since on this list they're no more off-topic than any of the
rest of 'em...) to some of Brad Shultz' posts, I have a little bit to
say about those who are saying "hey, if you notice a troll posting,
ignore them."
Well, yes, that's the conventional wisdom about trolling. But I
think the line's a bit fuzzier here as to whether Shultz in
particular is a troll or not. He definitely said some rude things
in the course of the flame war, but people also said some rude
things back to him. And he started the conversation with some
controversial opinions. But he's posted back to respond to them,
and posts other non-controversial things at times, even recently,
and unlike on some lists and newsgroups, it's not like discussing
the morals of sex before marriage or any of those sorts of things
are taboo. Personally I think he said some pretty unforgivable
things to Jorge and Venezia, and I still remain convinced he's more
interested in complaining about losing the argument and not having
it taken seriously than he is in having a rational discussion about
his views (certainly I've seen no response to my fairly rational
questions about why he feels the way he does, and which is his
opinions and which he thinks are backed by fact). but I'm not sure
he fits the standard definition of a troll, either.
Like /nad and the other old lurkers, I also hope there are people who'd
care as much about whether I unsubscribed when I wasn't posting as
when I've posted a few times in the past few months. (Nevermind that
currently, me unsubscribing as opposed to not reading digests anymore
would mean no more list archive at MIT, because that's my
"subscription"... so I'm sure some of you *would* notice ;) yes, I
admit that the digest at MIT pretty much exists for my own personal
convienence, and, back when I was a student, for my own sanity of not
actually having to deal with digests when I had too much work to
do...) I think the list is more than just its frequent posters.
That aside, I'm not at all in favor of censoring the list or kicking
people off of it when they're rude. I think it's far too slippery a
slope, not to mention useless when mail addresses are a dime a dozen.
The list shouldn't be the judge or the administrator of justice. If
someone actually, seriously, threatens you on this list, there does
exist a legal system for that sort of thing, and if it's just rude and
insulting behavior, ignore them and block their mail and know that the
majority of the list probably agrees with you that they're being a
jerk, even without the need for us to fill two digests saying so.
As for those of us who don't mean it and who want the list to be a
more comfortable place, let's try to think before we post, and maybe
try *gasp* to have extended conversations sometimes that aren't about
controversy per se. It's been forever since I've seen a song
interpretation posted here, or other sort of friendly topics that
don't require that you're one of the list regulars to know the
backstory of someone's life and that you don't feel shy about butting
in to comment on their lives before it's worth responding to a post.
Of course, now I'm drawing a blank on what to post to follow my own
suggestion. I'm usually a responder, not a topic-starter. but I
promise, if you post something interesting and friendly and not too
personal that I can contribute to, I'll try to respond. =)
abbe
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Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 10:31:29 -0700
From: Beth Winegarner <echoes@atlantic.devin.com>
To: RDT Right Now <rdtrn@torithoughts.org>
Subject: Re: blood and oysters
(don't ask me...)
Winterlion wrote:
> watched 6th sense. loved it. anyone else relate to the boy though?
> ... brought back too many memories.
Yes ... same for me. I won't go into detail, but I had some experiences in
childhood that sure freaked me out. Now that I'm older I understand them
differently... but it sure isn't nice when you're sensing such things and
all the while your parents are saying "la la la, there's no such thing as
ghosts..."
Beth
--
"As sunlight obscures the stars by day, so does wakefulness blind us to the
fact that we are still dreaming." (Peter Carroll)
_._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._
Visit my web site at http://echoes.devin.com -- see photos and artwork, read
poetry and stories, learn about selkies and Sonoma County, and join the
froud-faeries list. :)
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Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 23:11:33 +1000
From: "Glenn Jones" <earth@nru.com.au>
To: "To Arty Turner and back" <rdtrn@torithoughts.org>
Subject: Thank you
no, this isn't an extra millenium memory message. I jsut wanted to thank the
digest, and El Kato in particular 'coz I only had to get as far as her
message to feel inspired and filled with happiness regarding this list. :)
El Kato typed:
>black with giraffes all over it and is just cool, 'cos hey, let's face
>it, giraffes are cool (I had a dream that bf turned into a giraffe and I
You said it girl! :)
And Kate, do you know about the Oztori list? Getting on that would make it
easier for finding boots locally. You can find it at onelist.
So maybe it's time for me to tell my interesting housemate story (that
resulted in me moving in with Mr Jones ;) I came to Newcastle to go to uni
and decided to board with people rather than live on campus. When I was
finishing up I started looking around for somewhere to move to and nothing
appealed to me. One day I was talking with someone who had become a friend
that year through us being in a class together and a mutual friend. She had
a spare room, so I moved in as a housemate, no longer a boarder. Everything
was fine and dandy for about 6 months, and then one night I come home and I
go to open the door to my room and the nail (that acted as the door knob...
long story) was gone. I turned on the hallway light and there was a note on
the door "Mind the nail"! She'd taken the nail out thinking I wouldn't be
able to get in!!! Luckily I had a pen with me that I found served the same
purpose. The next morning I find a note on the table going on about me using
her stuff and not doing my share of things around the house. She was like 40
and had lived there for at least a year, so the house was already furnished.
I don't know what she wanted me to do, have a separate fridge when there was
no room for it! As for cleaning, I'm sure I pulled my wieght, let alone
bringing her dogs home everytime they ran away. Anyway, she never tried to
resolve the matter and would only correspond with notes, we never talked
face to face since probably a week before this happened (I was out a lot and
she was sick in bed a lot). The notes went on for like a fortnight, and she
ended up packing up all the saucepans, cutlery and crockery and putting them
in her room. I was fed up with it all I decided to move out. When I went
back to drop off the key and pick up the last of my mail there were like two
boxes there with a note telling me take ALL my stuff... I had a quick look
in the boxes and it seemed to be stuff that we'd either shared or was hers,
so I left it all there. Later that day she took it around to my friends
house (she didn't know my new address) and left it on their doorstep (it
took me a week or so to go around and sort through it - turned out there was
butter and eggs in there!!!), then rang me to abuse me and hung up before I
could respond. Now, she had been diagnosed with breast cancer, but quite
frankly I can't excuse her behaviour. Can you tell I'm still dumbfounded by
it all???
Dadoo, Tiarna is doing pretty fine. Have I told you all I've updated her
page? New photos and all. http://homepages.go.com/~_tiarnajones_/tiarn.html
Heh, and earlier she turned up the volume on the tele when the add for
Charmed playing 'Lust' was on :)
I am basically with Bethany. I have mailed Jorge a couple of times about his
parting message, and as I ahve found with him in the past he isn't really
open to the view that he may be at fault to a degree. I can't remember back
far enough as to who started what, but Jorge is not innocent in carrying it
on. More than Jorge leaving the list I am upset Venezia has gone for a time,
she was thought-provoking AND thoughtful.
Getting back to roommate shenanigans... though this I heard of this tactic
as a jock thing... deep heat (sports cream that warms the area it is applied
to) in the underpants... ;)
Really, now that I think more about it, a lot of the flame wars have sprung
up out of misunderstandings. If something irks you, how about mailing the
person who typed it first? Hopefully a misunderstanding will be cleared up
without flames appearing on the lsit. I also think we forget about 'treating
others the way you want to be treated'.
X
Lavs
~^^~ ~^^~ ~^^~ ~^^~ ~^^~ ~^^~ ~^^~ ~^^~ ~^^~ ~^^~ ~^^~ ~^^~ ~^^~
Who could ever say you're not simply wonderful
- 'Merman', Tori Amos
~^^~ ~^^~ ~^^~ ~^^~ ~^^~ ~^^~ ~^^~ ~^^~ ~^^~ ~^^~ ~^^~ ~^^~ ~^^~
http://homepages.go.com/~lavenda1/toriamos.html - A Winter Girl's Tori Amos
page
http://homepages.go.com/~lavenda1/lavenda1.html - Lavenda's Homepage
-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o
[top]
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 20:16:38 -0400
From: "Carmen" <carmeenaska@earthlink.net>
To: <rdtrn@torithoughts.org>
Subject: juan juan bo bon
Juan said:
but it's ok, it was just a suggestion... and I
like what Carmen writes lots of times too, though I like it least when she
hates me.
and by the way...
I don't hate you at all. Nor do I hate Bethey. I'm just a wise ass. Don't
mind me.
Carmen
-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o
[top]
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 20:20:28 -0400
From: "Carmen" <carmeenaska@earthlink.net>
To: <rdtrn@torithoughts.org>
Subject: minority rules
Aitch says:
- Would I be in a minority if I said that I am rather untroubled about the
flame wars here, and that at times I'm really rather amused by them?
Nope. I find a bit of humour in them myself. I suppose this is why I'm a
little loose with the words. I just don't get the same feeling that most
others do. Nor do I feel that this list is any different from when I joined
it well over a year and a half ago. I just don't see the problem. This was
always my favorite list, and the only change is that now everyone's whining
about it. THAT is what's perplexing to me. Not how to stop the flames. Oh
well, I'm sure I'm one of a very small few that feel this way.
Carmen
o-o-o o-o-o o-o-o o-o-o o-o-o o-o-o o-o-o o-o-o o-o-o o-o-o
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