RDTRN Archive - RDT Right Now #1796

RDT Right Now #1796

From: rdtrn@torithoughts.org
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 06:37:12 -0800
Subject: RDT Right Now #1796
To: rdtrn@torithoughts.org

Do not hit reply to unsubscribe. To unsub, send a message to: <rdtrn-request@torithoughts.org> with "unsubscribe" in the subject and body. o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o Really Deep Thoughts Right Now Volume 03 : Issue #1796 . o - O - O - O - O - O - O - O - o . o o . o o O "Thoughts right now... O o What will become of me, o o Become of her, become of we?" o . o o . O O O - o - o - o - o - o - o - o - O o . o o o Tori Amos, "Thoughts" In this issue: o-o-o-o-o-o-o Saddam-centric thinking [ OMBO@aol.com ] See the colors - Abraham, Martin and [ ericwithac@t-online.de (Eric Thelen ] King of Rats [ "Victoria McCabe" <victoria@muruch. ] Re: RDT Right Now #1790 [ Teunis Peters <winterlion@greycloak ] the Tori Amos concert (Feb 22, 2003) [ Cyndi S Crawford <cyndi.crawford@ju ] white americaaaaaaaaa [ "ms. jessica parsons" <fullblownlif ] Missed a digest? Pick up a copy at the RDTRN archives: http://www.torithoughts.org/rdtrn/archives -o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o [top] Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 12:01:18 -0500 From: OMBO@aol.com To: rdtrn@torithoughts.org (RDT Right Now) Subject: Saddam-centric thinking The stuff posted in the last digest responding to anti-war protesters - the nasty ad hominem articles Brad so thoughtfully provided, and Roxanne's more thoughtful comments - showed what I think is the major flaw in the arguments for war. I call that "Saddam-centric" thinking. There seems to be this assumption on the part of many war supporters that those of us who are anti-war either don't realize or, worse, don't care about how evil Saddam is. Nothing could be further from the truth. Sure, some fringe elements have asserted that Saddam isn't that bad, but the vast majority of those in the peace movement do indeed agree that Saddam is a menace that needs to be dealt with. But it isn't that simple. HOW we deal with him is important. And it is my opinion that dealing with him in the old-fashioned way - by doing a full-fledged invasion of Iraq where civilian casualties are seen as "regrettable" rather than intolerable - is both immoral and counter-productive. It'll destabilize the region, it'll lead to more anti-Americanism and terrorism, and it will devastate countless people in the name of "helping" them. I have no doubt that Iraqi people would like to be free of Saddam. But I also have no doubt that they're terrified at the prospect of being bombed in order to accomplish that end. And make no mistake: that's what's gonna happen. (I hope that people checked out the links I posted in my last post, which dealt with the issue of civilian casualties.) As I said before, devastation to the civilian population of Iraq is the thing that war supporters really don't seem to want to face. Instead, they'd rather talk about what a bad person Saddam is. To be sure, he is a bad person. But that is not the be-all and end-all of this issue. Roxanne asked what those of us who oppose war would do about Saddam. I don't have a specific answer to that question. But I am convinced that what we are preparing to do will make a bad problem worse. Steve the Sweet Fat Man -o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o [top] Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 21:40:38 +0100 From: ericwithac@t-online.de (Eric Thelen) To: "Really Deep Thoughts Right Now Mailing List" <rdtrn@torithoughts.org> Subject: See the colors - Abraham, Martin and John... Hi everybody. Now, the possibility of (more) war in the world is on everybody's mind, obviously. And it should be, since it affects us all in various ways. Sometimes, for me it is disappointing that the discussions are being oversimplified. I think, especially when arguing about aspects of war, peace, life and death, that everybody should at least make a serious attempt to understand the perspective of those, who represent a different viewpoint. To me, it is ridiculous to believe that the millions of people who have voiced their opinions against an invasion in Iraq are in general 'supporting' Saddam Hussein or defending what he did in the past or what he might do in the future. On the other side, it would not be fair to assume that those who argue that the world needs to act now are ignoring the fact that in a war many innocent human beings will die, on all sides. Although my personal strong belief is that starting a war on Iraq at this time would not be justified and that it will cause an overwhelming amount of pain, which might still be avoidable, I respect the fear of those, who feel that it would already be too dangerous not to act soon. But: None of us is really well informed at this time. It is very difficult for any of us to balance the actual threat being posed by the Iraq today against the terrors of war. We are being manipulated by politicians and media - in both directions. ["The first casualty when war comes is truth." (Hiram W. Johnson, Senator for California, to the US Senate in 1917)] I am afraid that a war might not only not solve all the problems, but that it could even raise new ones. It might radicalize people in certain countries even further and a new generation of terrorists might find additional motivation and more supporters. And what will happen in Iraq after Hussein is removed and the country and its infrastructure has been destroyed? Will this stabilize the region or rather destabilize it? Who will support the rebuilding process, which will be very expensive and which will take many years? And it is very difficult to speculate what the people in Iraq actually want right now. Is there anybody here, who has recently been there or who personally has friends there? Don't believe it if anybody says: "The people in Iraq want this or that." First ask yourself what this person's motivation is and then consider whether the statement is believable or not. Just consider for a second what you really wanted, if you lived there: A war in your country, that will have effects that you cannot completely foresee at this time, including that you might get killed yourself, and which will result in a very uncertain future - or a continuation of the current situation, which is not very positive either. Potentially, you would at least not liked to be instrumentalized, no matter what your real opinion would be... By the way, if you should be in favor of acting against the Iraq right now: Ask yourself if you would actually go and fight there yourself, with a chance of having to kill people who are only receiving orders and who have family - and with a chance to get killed, too. It is always comparatively easy to say that others should go to war. War should always only be the very last option. And there have been situations in history, where it was unavoidable. I don't think that we are there again, yet. Cyndi asked about Tori's viewpoint. Well, most likely none of us has really discussed with her on this matter, so that some speculation is required here, too. But there have been numerous rather clear indirect indications about her thoughts. In San Francisco, during her December shows, she encouraged the people in San Francisco to make their voices heard (again). In Hamburg, Germany, Tori must have heard about the positions of politicians e.g. in France and Germany. That night, she - for the first time ever - performed the cover song 'Abraham, Martin and John' (about A. Lincoln, M. Luther King and J. F. Kennedy). My theory (this is, of course, only speculation!) is that her message was something like: "Remember that we in America had different kinds of leadership personalities, too - don't believe that Mr. Bush is the best we can do..." In Frankfurt, during her last European show, Tori told us: "Don't let the Americans push you around." This was very obviously referring to the situation that some European countries are opposing the position of the U.S. government in the U.N. discussions and that the U.S. government had reacted in a not very diplomatic way, expressing their disapproval rather strongly. When you start to see more colors, life may suddenly get rather complicated - and sometimes, it may become too complicated. Nevertheless, everybody should give it a try, maybe even Brad. Everybody enjoy your lives, Eric (with a 'c') -o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o [top] Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 17:33:32 -0500 From: "Victoria McCabe" <victoria@muruch.net> To: <circusworld@yahoogroups.com>, "RDT Right Now" <rdtrn@torithoughts.org>, <sharingsound@yahoogroups.com>, <artofthesoul@yahoogroups.com>, <so-called@mail-list.com> Subject: King of Rats I received Gabriela Kulka's cd, King of Rats, today and I'm listening to it right now. You have to buy this cd. You have to. It is so brilliant! I love every song I've heard Gabriela sing, but as with most artists she sounds so much clearer on cd than on mp3. And these are new songs to me. 'Detuned Radio' is my new favourite song, but they are all so individual and haunting. Not since Tori Amos' Little Earthquakes cd have I been so caught up and spellbound by an album. If you like Tori Amos, Shannon Wright, Mary Timony, Bjork, Diamanda Galas...hell, if you just like moving music with lyrics that actually have meaning and beautiful piano playing with a soaring otherworldly voice, you're going to love this cd. So go to http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/306/gabriela_kulka.html and buy the cd. It's cheap and so worth it! If you haven't ready, you can hear some of her mp3s at the above link and also at: http://artists.iuma.com/IUMA/Bands/Gabriela_Kulka Her covers of Sting's 'Russians' and Bruce Dickinson's 'Killing Floor' are especially good. But they all are. She often incorporates Tori lyrics and melodies into her music. Her official site is http://gabrielakulka.prv.pl A thousand thanks to Beth for introducing me to Gabriela and her music. My life is all the richer for it. /end plug. ;) Victoria http://muruch.net -o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o [top] Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 23:52:06 -0800 (PST) From: Teunis Peters <winterlion@greycloaklabs.ca> To: RDT Right Now <rdtrn@torithoughts.org> Subject: Re: RDT Right Now #1790 Succubus Megan wrote a new story? COOOL!!! but ummmmm I can't find it???? > http://www.fanfiction.net/read.php?storyid=1190934 and Jim <jimphynn@mindspring.com> writes good press... (erased some arguments both for and against even -mentioning- Hitler in regards to either Bush or Hussein). Although I'm scared of possible ethnic pogroms against islamic peoples... any mob tends to develop scapegoats so anything can happen at this point *sigh*. Actually the real problem for the US is (other than the panics, the hate-mongering and possible draft scenerios) is this: - A country who goes to war to raise revenue merely trades national debt for gain for whatever bodies sell them weapons. So if you think that national debt growth is harmless, the war will probably be 'good' for the US. In the past the US mostly gained from selling everyone -else- weapons... and Congratulations Jim Mathers! G'day, eh? :) - Winterlion, hopelessly behind... -o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o [top] Date: Sun, 23 Feb 2003 03:45:43 -0500 From: Cyndi S Crawford <cyndi.crawford@juno.com> To: precious0147@yahoo.com, jcoffman@taurus.oursc.k12.ar.us, mjcentral@hotmail.com, rdtrn@torithoughts.org, lyricallacquer@hotmail.com, northernlad111@yahoo.com Subject: the Tori Amos concert (Feb 22, 2003) I am *extremely* exhausted as I write this.. it's been a very long day full of emotional highs.. and plus it's 3 in the morning right now. We got at the venue at around 1:00 central time.. we circled around to check and see where the meet-and-greet people were gonna be, found 'em, my mom dropped me off, and then found a really good parking place.. so I hung around with the crowd, chatting and talking with everybody, etc.. killed a few hours without realizing where all the time had gone.. and we got rained on a little bit too--which kinda kept Tori from standing outside with everybody for longer than she did.. Well anyway, at around 3:30 or 4:00, Tori came out. I made a copy of my Hey Jupiter video (using footage from the orig. video as well as other footage of her that I've got..) to give to her--and stuck my letter in an envelope with the tape in its own box the night before.. Anyway, Tori came out and said hello to everybody.. She got to me and I handed her the box and explained that it was a music video that I made for her.. *SHE* took it from me, not her bodyguard.. and then while I could, I asked her if she could play part of Datura for me (she didn't--I'm fine with it.) and she nodded (not a "yeah. I'll play it" nod, but a "I heard you and I'll at least consider it" nod.) and then she asked me if this was my only show and I told her that I'd seen her in Atlanta and told her about how I felt when she played Hey Jupiter at the end of the show.. and then somewhere in between that, I told her that when she smiles, she reminded me of my mother (and I made sure to say to her that THAT was indeed, a Good Thing.).. and she smiled and told me thanks.. I took LOTS of pictures of all this btw.. (I'll get them developed VERY soon) and then she was kinda moving to other ppl sorta.. and I asked her how her daughter was doing and she smiled real big again and said "She's doing fine" and thanked me for asking.. I took more pictures, told her she looked great (actually, that was the first thing I said.), told her good luck, told her we all loved her, etc.. and then she left and I went "Bye, Tori!" and she said bye to us all too. Oh... it was.. I still can't get over it. I knew to expect it because I've read things from so many other people who've met her saying the same thing, BUT.. when you're talking to her.. she doesn't just nod and go "uh huh" while signing other autographs and basically just ignoring you.. she stares right into your eyes and PAYS ATTENTION.. and it totally makes you feel like the most important person in her world at that moment--as if she thought you were giving her some crucial life-or-death information. Just her looking straight at me and not just putzing around with other crap while I was talking to her, that was enough to make me ecstatic. I wasn't close enough for a hug or a picture together or an autograph, but she got my video and she listened to me tell her stuff and she heard my request for a song (movement 2 of Datura).. and.. I told my mom about it and she was as happy as I was about it. It was bloody amazing! In between all that, I made a couple of friends who had an extra ticket (which was LOTS better in terms of seating arrangement..) and they gave it to me--for free.. so I gave my craptastic seat to my mother.. (she was willing to go see Tori) and.. that's as important to me as meeting Tori was.. because I wanted my mom to see Tori's performance for herself.. AND SHE DID! She had bad seats, but she got to see Tori.. and she didn't much care for all of the music (too many minor chords she said..) but she got to see just how talented Tori was and she told me that she LOVES Tori's voice.. she said Tori's got a BEAUTIFUL voice.. and she also thought that she had a really cute personality about her.. and that she loved how Tori would be dancing all over her seat and then she'd cross her leg while she played, etc.. it was really awesome.. The show itself was really REALLY good.. The highlight of it (for me) was when she sang Crucify.. it was truly beautiful. She closed the show with Playboy Mommy (because we were in Birmingham and she mentions Birmingham--altho she means Birm. England so I understand..) and we were all walking out of it more or less awestruck. I can't say the same for the opening act.. It wasn't Howie Day this time. :( It was some other guy.. I've forgotten his name already. He had a pretty good singing voice, but.. all of his songs sounded the same to me--and if *I* say that about somebody, then you know that's a pretty bad thing since I tend to have an ear for little easily-overlooked qualities in a song that makes it different. I was actually kinda disappointed in him and wished that it'd been Howie--so that my mom coulda seen just how good he (Howie of course) is. ANYWAY.. that more or less sums up my day. It was a BLAST! I would do it again in a second. It was incredible. ABSOLUTELY incredible.. but now I must go to bed. I can't keep my eyes open for much longer. >___< Sincerely, Cyndi S. Crawford http://www.platinumcomplication.com/cyndi/ -- http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/368/ciara_blaze.html -- http://learntothink0.tripod.com/learntothinkagain/ -- http://www.geocities.com/keyyooo/ -- http://www.cafepress.com/cp/store/store.aspx?storeid=kittitude Tori Amos' response when asked to describe herself in five words: "I. Do. Not. Describe. Myself." ________________________________________________________________ Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com -o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o [top] Date: Sun, 23 Feb 2003 04:27:55 -0800 From: "ms. jessica parsons" <fullblownlife@hotmail.com> To: rdtrn@torithoughts.org Subject: white americaaaaaaaaa yes, i'm listening to eminem. roxanne, i loved your message or question to the people who are opposed to war. i think that people are naturally opposed to war but sometimes don't stop to think what to do instead. i don't know how i feel about the war in iraq. i don't think that the bush administration has a plan for what do to do IF they find/kill saddam hussein. i love how they assume they will find him really quickly. riiiight. if you're opposed to this war, fine but what would you do then? one thing that people don't bring up is the cost of war. i'm not talking about people's lives either. hello budget deficit, how are you? i found out that the dixie chicks and norah jones are coming to portland this summer. yay! i watched y tu mama tambien tonight. has anyone else seen it? i don't know what to think...i liked it but other than that...i just watched the good girl. yeah, it's really good. oh and if anyone has seen igby goes down and thinks it's good, please respond and try to convince me. i thought it was really overrated. it's nearly 4:30am so i should go to bed...grr. i'm not tired at all. my house is so quiet right now, it's infuriating. too bad this email wasn't more consistent or it would be interesting. oh, it's nice to see people posting again. hi january dry spell that sucked all our lives away, it's so nice to see february!! -jessica- Listen: We have done it again we are Still living. Sit up and smile, God bless you. Guilt is magical. ---Adultery, James Dickey _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail o-o-o o-o-o o-o-o o-o-o o-o-o o-o-o o-o-o o-o-o o-o-o o-o-o *** Welcome To Shit Creek -- Sorry, We're Out Of Paddles digest *** To POST messages to this list: <rdtrn@torithoughts.org> Can't figure out how to SUB, UNSUB, or CHANGE ADDRESSES? Send a message to <rdtrn-request@torithoughts.org> with "help" as the subject. Digest PROBLEMS or QUESTIONS? Contact: <admin@torithoughts.org> Want your BIRTHDAY announced on RDTRN in 2003? 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