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From:
rdtrn@torithoughts.org
Date:
Sat, 01 Mar 2003 05:01:27 -0800
Subject:
RDT Right Now #1798
To:
rdtrn@torithoughts.org
Do not hit reply to unsubscribe. To unsub, send a message to:
<rdtrn-request@torithoughts.org>
with "unsubscribe" in the subject and body.
o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o
Really Deep Thoughts Right Now Volume 03 : Issue #1798
.
o - O - O - O - O - O - O - O - o
. o o .
o o
O "Thoughts right now... O
o What will become of me, o
o Become of her, become of we?" o
. o o .
O O
O - o - o - o - o - o - o - o - O
o .
o
o
o
Tori Amos, "Thoughts"
In this issue:
o-o-o-o-o-o-o
Words from a fearless leader... [ "Beth Coulter" <betheqt@voicenet.co ]
more crap from Brad [ OMBO@aol.com ]
Tori Amos Radio City Music Hall 3/6 [ leif <lil_leif@att.net> ]
Fucking Music [ Jim <jimphynn@comcast.net> ]
For Sale- Toledo tix, row G [ thorndik@ix.netcom.com ]
those who wish peace... [ Teunis Peters <winterlion@greycloak ]
new university interview [ noam tchotchke <woj@smoe.org> ]
Testimonial [ Brad Shultz <springhaze@comcast.net ]
returning! [ "Simon Booth" <sbooth1@satx.rr.com> ]
war - what is it good for? [ Brian Cooper <byteme@smartchat.net. ]
Missed a digest? Pick up a copy at the RDTRN archives:
http://www.torithoughts.org/rdtrn/archives
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Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 15:25:43 -0800
From: "Beth Coulter" <betheqt@voicenet.com>
To: "RDT Right Now" <rdtrn@torithoughts.org>
Subject: Words from a fearless leader...
"Naturally, the common people don't want war, but after all, it is the
leaders of a country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple
matter to drag the people along whether it is a democracy, or a fascist
dictatorship, or a parliament or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no
voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That
is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked and
denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to
danger. It works the same in every country."
Hermann Goering, 1939
Sounds like Bush and Ashcroft went to the Goering School of Politics.
Beth
"The world is a dangerous place to live;
not because of the people who are evil,
but because of the people who don't do anything about it."
- Albert Einstein
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
A vision without a task is but a dream.
A task without a vision is drudgery.
A vision with a task is the hope of the world. -unknown
Beth's Really Deep Thoughts
www.BethCoulter.com
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[top]
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 20:36:51 -0500
From: OMBO@aol.com
To: rdtrn@torithoughts.org (RDT Right Now)
Subject: more crap from Brad
Apparently proceding under the notion that if you repeat something often
enough, it magically becomes true, Brad is ignoring the criticisms I and
others have made of these articles he's posting and posting more that say
essentially the same thing.
Well, that's cool. I can knock 'em down as long as he sets 'em up - or at
least until I get bored with it.
The sad thing is that he's not posting articles that make the case for war
with Iraq, but rather articles that make nasty and untrue attacks on those
who oppose the war. The very definition of ad hominem argument. Oh well,
whatever blows his dress up.
But this latest article just repeats the same crap the others did about
those of us who oppose the war being "pro-Saddam". Again, nothing is
further from the truth. And there were indeed many signs that said, "Let
the inspections work" - the motto of one of the largest groups, Win Without
War. The notion that the vast majority of peace demonstrators don't
acknowledge that Saddam is an evil man - whether that happens to be on
their signs or not - is just nonsense. And yes, very much an ad hominem
"argument" for this war.
And as for this war being about "the liberation of the Iraqi people", well,
my entire problem with this whole damned thing is that it's gonna liberate
all too many of them from their homes or their earthly existence. I
understand the feelings of those Iraqis quoted in the story, but I really
would like to ask them what they think about "Shock and Awe" and the
predictions of a humanitarian disasters. I've seen interviews with Iraqis
who are actually in the line of fire, and they seem to see it differently,
no matter what they have to say about Saddam.
They're fucking terrified.
Yes, of course, I'm sure that they'd love to be free of Saddam, but talk
about "out of the frying pan and into the fire".
So yeah, once again, this story falls victim to the two things I talked
about before - Saddam-centric thinking and the whole thing about ignoring
"the elephant in the room" (civilian casualties).
Maybe, at some point, Brad will want to provide actual ideas to support war
and deal with the issue of civilian casualties, whether in his own words or
by posting articles addressing those things. Or, maybe he'll continue what
Teunis accurately described as the troll behavior, posting nasty and
inaccurate attacks on those of us who most certainly do acknowledge that
Saddam needs to be dealt with, but question the way that it's being done.
Whatever.
Oh, and I promise that my next post will be about Tori. :-)
Steve the Sweet Fat Man
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[top]
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 23:10:19 -0500
From: leif <lil_leif@att.net>
To: precious-things@smoe.org, rdtrn@torithoughts.org
Subject: Tori Amos Radio City Music Hall 3/6 tix
I have a pair of tickets for Tori's Radio City show Thurs, March 6.
1st Mez, Seats 611 & 612
Will sell for face value incl ticketmaster fees $120 OR will gladly trade
for tickets of equal value for the March 7 or 8 shows.
Thanks for reading.
Leif
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[top]
Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 00:12:30 -0500
From: Jim <jimphynn@comcast.net>
To: RDT Right Now <rdtrn@torithoughts.org>
Subject: Fucking Music
First off, I'd like to point out to everyone that I have changed
e-mail addresses. This was after I got totally frustrated with
dial-up internet access, and the collusion between the phone company
and the cable company prevented me from keeping my old e-mail address.
There's been a lot (arguably too much) political talk lately. I
finally got around to watching the premiere episode of the new Bill
Maher show on HBO and the one point that got hammered home to me was
the fact that we've essentially moved away from the debate on the
topic of war, replacing it with two sides that really can't
communicate with one another.
It took the abortion debate approximately fifteen years to reach that point.
So, in the interest of sparking some non-political discussion, I
purchased the new album by Silverman, one of my favorite mp3.com
bands this past week.
There's a track on this new album called "Eleven Eleven," and with
the classic line "Fuck you, fuck me, fuck every fucking body."
They've got another song out there, whose title escapes me right now
with the equally classic "If you're not fucking up, you're fucking
down."
So that got me to thinking:
What are the most and least effective uses of the word "fuck" in
music? The last ten years or so have seen an explosion in the usage
of the dreaded f-word in music. So where does it have an impact?
Where doesn't it work?
Personally, I think some of the best are:
"Professional Widow," by Tori
"Working Class Hero," by John Lennon
"Throwing Stones," by Paula Cole
"You," by Candlebox
"Closer" by Nine Inch Nails
What does everyone else think?
Jim
--
Jim Goldman jimphynn@comcast.net
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/jimphynn
----------------------------------------------------------------
"I've been looking through a stained-glass window. I've been
building a tower of dreams. In my eagerness to climb that
rainbow, I discovered what America means." -- Karen Kosowski,
"Stained Glass Window"
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[top]
Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 18:07:56 -0500
From: thorndik@ix.netcom.com
To: rdtrn@torithoughts.org
Subject: For Sale- Toledo tix, row G
I have a pair of good seats for Tori's show in Toledo (Stranahan Theater,
March 11th) that I can't use. They are Main Floor, row G, seats 109 & 111.
I am only asking what I paid for them during the online pre-sale through
Ticketmaster: $93.
Email me directly at thorndik@ix.netcom.com if you are interested.
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[top]
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 11:47:03 -0800 (PST)
From: Teunis Peters <winterlion@greycloaklabs.ca>
To: RDT Right Now <rdtrn@torithoughts.org>
Subject: those who wish peace...
should find a way inside...
peace begins in one's heart...
anyways
if the US was claiming better (more honest) reasons against Iraq I wouldn't
be as far against their invasion... and there ARE more appropriate
(political) ways to deal with it.... rather than saying "war" every day
until it happens.
but if the US invades Iraq WITHOUT the support (popular support that is) of
the people of Iraq, Saddam Hussein will PROBABLY be replaced by
someone/something far worse...
incidentally I know noone from Iraq but I've known people from Iran who'd
-love- the current gov't there to be replaced. It used to be a democratic
place and rather nice and beautiful until for some reason the US encouraged
the overthrow into a darker regime... Mind you Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, and
many other places used to be democracies... and aren't anymore.
now onto other MUCH more fun subjects...
from Victoria:
> Subject: King of Rats
> go to http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/306/gabriela_kulka.html and buy
> the cd. It's cheap and so worth it!
> ...
> If you haven't ready, you can hear some of her mp3s at the above link and
> also at: http://artists.iuma.com/IUMA/Bands/Gabriela_Kulka
> ...
> Her official site is http://gabrielakulka.prv.pl
Seconded. I will get it as soon as possible. I've loved her online music
to date and missed her presence here on the list... but then she got
recording and everyone was happy :)
G'day, eh? :)
- Winterlion
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[top]
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 15:48:49 -0500
From: noam tchotchke <woj@smoe.org>
To: torinews@smoe.org, fiercest clams <precious-things@smoe.org>,
rdtrn@torithoughts.org, toriphery@groups.msn.com,
tori-amos@yahoogroups.com
Subject: new university interview
<url: http://horus.vcsa.uci.edu/article.php?id=803 >
Singer Tori Amos Finds Solace in Her 'Sorta Fairytale Life'
Unveil the mysteries behind Tori Amos' long-lived, whirlwind music career
by: Cynthia Louie and Taraneh Arhamsadr
Staff Writers
Outside the Universal Amphitheatre in Hollywood, fearless and
politically-charged singer Tori Amos calmly sat down in a backstage
dressing room. Her free-flowing, untamed curly red hair and inquisitive
blue-green eyes seemed to burn a hole in the wall. Commanding the room's
attention and bringing all other ambient conversations to a quick silence,
Amos' aura and presence was unmistakable.
The woman that has been described as a religion unto herself, a first-hand
rape survivalist and not to mention a classically-trained pianist with
seven albums under her belt, started fielding questions in a calm and
intelligent manner that would give Gandhi a run for his money. After the
release of her current album "Scarlet's Walk," a collection of
politically-infused and introspective choral ballads, Amos has been able to
reflect fondly back on her long music career.
New University: During your career, do you think you have written more
songs as a political response or more songs based on your personal experiences?
Tori Amos: In the earlier years, it was much more about a diary, or about
myself. I had not traveled that much yet, so I would like to think I had
seen the world but I had not. I wanted to. At first, it was writing about
what I knew, but what is funny is that I did not know much. There was a
period of being 26, where the kind of woman that I had become and the kind
of woman I wanted to be, were two different things, and I did not even know
it. It's a little dangerous when you can do more than one thing. You are
lucky because that is your niche. It is about finding out how you can wake
up with yourself.
New U.: When does it become a political message?
Amos: Until you know in here [pointing to her heart] what kind of woman or
man you want to be, you shouldn't count on anybody anymore because they'll
desert you when you need them. Once you make some type of commitment, what
kind of mom, what kind of wife, what kind of friend, what kind of religion,
what kind of citizen, you are [you will be a better person.] Sometimes you
will find that you have to mother your mother, or father your mother, and
that might be the true values in our country. It means you choose as a
generation to rise up and ask the question. If you step outside of the
country, it is different. You can choose to pick up the torch or not.
New U.: What motivated you to become a spokesperson for rape victims?
Amos: The details are back in the annals between my mom and I. Right now, I
hold a place for people who have survived incest, rape and sexual assault.
When I was going through my hard time, I wished I could have called without
judgment, and talked about it, but I didn't, because I just couldn't go
through anymore. I didn't know where to turn, so I turned to the music.
I began to realize how many people have no place to call or no one to talk
to. I don't mean just a friend, I mean real advice. A group of us became a
team with Arthur, my manager. We created a braintrust, and we called it
RAINN [The Rape, Abuse and Incest National Network.] We worked on
networking, and now we have about a thousand crisis centers. Recently,
we've had our half-millionth call.
New U.: How do you maintain your creative integrity within the music business?
Amos: Sometimes an artist's work is not just about the record sales. When
you get in a situation where business people can only see the dollar or the
account, then that might not be a good place to be because at that point I
think they have lost the poetry and the mystery of what an artist can
represent to people.
New U.: What was the concept of your recent and very unconventional music
video for your hit single "A Sorta Fairytale?"
Amos: Sanji [the music video's director] had the idea that sometimes you
are just in love with the good things. Why does everybody have to be
Cinderella anyway? They can fall in love, but be hiding things from each
other. The fact is that fairytales come from the concepts that we read, the
whole knight in shining armor bit. A lot of us cannot see ourselves being
in the fairytale, us the way we are, not with a different nose, different
ears and a different boyfriend. At a certain point, you think, 'wait a
minute. I have a fairytale.' It's not like the book, but what does that
book know anyway? I think we break out of the fantasy of who the leading
lady is, and who the leading man is.
New U.: How do you see music as the dominant force in your life? What would
you see yourself doing if you were not in music?
Amos: It's tough. As a songwriter, you'd like to think, you know when to
walk away. We all go through different stages as writers. Some are more
tangible, and sometimes you seem to align where the culture is at the time.
You can really click with the masses. But, I don't know that if you're a
musician, you ever stop being one. You might not choose to put things out
all the time for people, but I think the artist's way is it's part of your
life. If you are a musician, you integrate it into your life. If you are a
painter, that's how you see the world.
New U.: What comes after music? What would you do before and after music?
Amos: I don't know if I'll always put out records, but I think that you
don't stop being a musician inside. If you are a writer, you do not stop
dreaming about life as if it were a book. Sometimes musicians and artists
look at it as their job. We are part of the tradition. There is a tradition
of musicians or painters. We have an apprenticeship. We keep our toolbox
going. Some of us become teachers and we pass on what we know.
New U.: Can you tell us a little about being a multi-instrumentalist?
Amos: I can only play the keyboards and the kazoo. Once you see how the
instrument works you understand the different kind of styles and
approaches. It's easier. I think you have to know when you are out of your
league with it and when it is something you can play. You have to give
yourself a chance with it. I never really played for anyone, but once I got
the confidence, then I started to integrate it into my act. You have to set
aside time to develop.
New U.: What advice do you have for someone who is just starting out and
pursuing a major label?
Amos: There are two sides to the music business. You can be a really good
musician and still be crappy at business decisions. To me, it is about, how
do I protect the songwriter that I call Tori? How do I make sure that we're
ok with the decisions that get made about her? In the beginning, I was a
little naive, thinking that I had a lot of energy, but I didn't have a lot
of understanding. How you get power is that you keep having wins and so I
made albums, and some do better for the business people.
New U.: What newer artists or bands are you listening to today?
Amos: Flaming Lips. If we get into that, who you invited to the table, I
would have been on the other side of the table. I did a cover song for a
woman and she mentioned everyone, but me. I've just decided, I had to let
it go. It might not have been personal, but it hurt my feelings. It's one
of those things, that if you mention and you don't mention others, in my
position, it can be hurtful and I really don't want to do that.
New U.: What are you feelings about online music and music sharing?
Amos: If you give back to the artist in some way, then you are not taking.
At the end of the day, we go back to the word "value." Look at it this way.
We are at a wine tasting. I really like the '97, but I don't put the bottle
in my purse because I want them to continue to make it, and pay their
workers who pick the grapes. It puts socks on the kids' feet, and not from
Nike. Until we get into the barter system, where I come and sing you a song
and you come and make me spaghetti, this is not how we show value.
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[top]
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 19:04:36 +0000
From: Brad Shultz <springhaze@comcast.net>
To: rdtrn@torithoughts.org
Subject: Testimonial
Iraq's poisoned babies have turned me into a hawk
By Julius Strauss
(Filed: 27/02/2003)
There's something singular about a man who has been severely tortured.
Maybe it's the way he struggles against failing eyesight caused by
repeated blows to the kidneys. Or his lop-sided posture, the result of
multiple broken bones that have failed to mend properly. Sometimes there
is a tremor in the hands or a twitch, a minuscule outer sign of the
torment within.
The man who sat opposite me in a small, bare room at the Kurdish border
post this week had all the symptoms of a man who had been systematically
broken. I encouraged him to tell his story and, slowly, sometimes
reluctantly, he relived the terror of the 21 months he spent in Saddam
Hussein's torture chambers.
"They put me in a cell at the secret police headquarters, tied my hands
together with wire and then suspended me from the ceiling," he said
quietly. "Then they beat me with batons and cables and ran electric
shocks through my fingers and genitals. It went on for months. They
never told me what my crime was."
I had seen such men before. When Serb forces unleashed a wave of
expulsions, beatings and killings on the ethnic Albanians in 1999, I met
a teacher in a refugee camp on the Macedonian border. I had known the
man before the war. He was quiet and modest and had counselled
moderation to the hotter heads in his village. When the war began, the
Serbs had arrested him and beaten him within an inch of his life. So
great were the physical changes they wrought on him that it was several
minutes before I made the leap of recognition.
When I came to autonomous northern Iraq - which since 1991 has been
protected from Saddam's reach by British and American warplanes - I was
intensely sceptical of the wisdom of Washington's insistence on deposing
Saddam. Its claims of links between al-Qa'eda and Baghdad seemed
tenuous. As for the assertion that Saddam will soon have the bomb, well,
the evidence was pretty flimsy.
Indeed, I could have reeled off a host of counter-arguments. At a time
when the Western world is entering a long-drawn-out struggle against
Islamist terrorism, it made little sense to fritter away resources to
oust a man whose regime was weaker than ever. A war also risked
alienating hundreds of millions of moderate Muslims whose support would
be essential if the threat of Islamist extremism was to be neutered.
I agreed with the quiet-spoken Muslim men I met in Pakistan, Afghanistan
and central Asia who said that a Middle East peace deal was a greater
priority than ousting Saddam. As long as the Palestinians continued to
die in the streets, they said, the fires of Islamist extremism would
keep burning. I have not renounced these arguments entirely. But after
little more than a week in northern Iraq, my eyes have been opened to
the sheer scale of savagery that Saddam has unleashed on his people.
Since my arrival I have visited villages, refugee camps, tea houses and
bazaars. Over tiny cups of strong, sweet tea I have listened to the
stories of the many people who live in this mountainous refuge. Some are
Kurds who have flourished under 12 years of self-rule, others recent
arrivals who were expelled or fled Saddam's territories to the south. In
Sulaimania, where I am based, Arabs, Turkomans and Assyrians now
co-exist peacefully with the Kurdish majority, but they all have
terrible tales to tell: it is as if the entire land and all its
inhabitants have been visited by a calamity of biblical proportions.
In my time as a journalist I have seen the ethnic cleansing of Bosnia
and the burning villages of Kosovo. I watched as Milosevic's
stormtroopers, their minds addled by paranoia and hatred, levelled
entire villages with little more than a Zippo lighter and a few cans of
petrol. In Sierra Leone, I saw children - arms or legs hacked off by
drugged-up thugs - struggle to haul themselves into broken wheelchairs.
I even interviewed the thugs that maimed them, 15- and 16-year-olds with
glazed eyes and heads full of demons.
In Afghanistan and Chechnya, the misery and suffering wrought often
beggared description. But nothing could have prepared me for the odious
evil of Saddam Hussein's rule.
In the 1980s, while the West railed against Nicolae Ceausescu's plan to
destroy 3,000 villages, Saddam Hussein actually did it. Then he murdered
180,000 Kurdish men above the age of 15 simply because he thought they
might one day turn against him.
Backed by Western governments who feared the spread of the Ayatollah's
Islamist revolution, he launched a speculative war against Iran that
left the better part of a million men dead.
Nor has the killing stopped since. Thousands of Iraqis are still being
executed without trial, and tens of thousands routinely tortured.
Millions live in a state of numb fear. As I stood this week watching the
dispossessed coming across the border into Kurdistan, I spoke to Kak
Adil, the officer in charge of the Kurdish post. "They all have stories
of beatings and brutal killings at the hands of Saddam," he said. "Only
his servants live without fear."
I have met grown-up men who say they pray each day for the death of the
dictator. The evil is there for all to see in Halabja, a small town the
Iraqis gassed in 1988. It is in the wheezing chests of the women seeing
out the remainder of their miserable lives and the red eyes of the men
who cannot forget the sight of blood dribbling from the mouths of the
dying children. Halabja has rates of leukaemia, cancer and congenital
conditions many times the Iraqi norm. One doctor who works in the town
told me: "A woman came to see me two months ago. She had given birth to
a little girl who had no feet." Who could argue with taking action
against the regime responsible for such outrages?
Assos Hardi, the editor of the liberal newspaper Hawalati in Sulaimania,
was more mathematical in his appraisal. He said: "How many people do you
think will die if America attacks Saddam? It will probably be less than
the number of people he kills in a single month."
As the drums of war beat ever louder, I am still unsure of the strategic
wisdom of opening a second front in the war against terror. But of the
moral rectitude of such a course, there can be no doubt.
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[top]
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 03:39:59 -0600
From: "Simon Booth" <sbooth1@satx.rr.com>
To: "RDT Right Now" <rdtrn@torithoughts.org>
Subject: returning!
Tragedies vs. accidents:
A teacher asks her class for an example of a "tragedy". One little boy
stands up and offers: "If my best friend, who lives on a farm, is playing in
the field and a runaway tractor comes along and knocks him dead, that would
be a tragedy." "No," says the teacher," that would be an accident."
A little girl raises her hand: "If a school bus carrying 50 children drove
over a cliff, killing everyone inside, that would be a tragedy."
"I'm afraid not," explains the teacher. "That's what we would call a great
loss."
The room goes silent. No other children volunteer. The teacher searches the
room. "Isn't there someone here who can give me an example of a tragedy?"
Finally at the back of the room a small boy raises his hand. In a quiet
voice he says: "If a
jet carrying Rush Limbaugh, Dr. Laura, Jerry Falwell, Eminem, and Bill Gates
were struck by a missile and blown to smithereens, that would be a tragedy."
"Fantastic!" exclaims the teacher, "That's right. And can you tell me why
that would be tragedy?"
"Well," says the boy, "because it certainly wouldn't be a great
loss and it probably wouldn't be an accident either."
I'm back!
happy birthday lavs :)
julie: congrats about the grades :)
remarking about tori from an interview tape:
>Anyways, I just fall more and more in love with her
>everytime I hear her. She is truly the most intelligent person I have ever
>heard or read or saw.
but of course. The supernova brilliance that is The One.
sorry to hear about the bad memories from the old notes from former friends
*hug*.
winterlion wrote:
>Subject: time flies like an arrow...
>but house flies like a salad.
What has four wheels and flies?
A garbage truck!
> (hey I'm mentally androgynous. Who knew :)
brings a whole new meaning to OS/hardware compatibility issues ;)
happy birthday Victoria :)
hey bethany- why am I not suprised that a friend of yours has a dog named
Frodo? ;) Juno is a mix but there are definite Cogry characteristics
there. From the size of her paws I could nickname her Ears with Big Feet ;)
and congrats to you too re: grades :)
Speaking of grades, I'm still looking at heading back to school sometime
this year, but I don't know yet when the local college will be offering the
computer graphics courses I want to enroll in. Hoping it's this summer, if
not, I'll have to wait until the fall at the earliest. The disabled student
services people were rather pissed at me last time I was there as a student,
and while I was told I wasn't welcome there, I'd like to think that there's
some sort of statute of limitations on that "order".
lavs wrote:
>Subject: still alive
exit 75? ;)
Estraven- great explanation about the technical challenges of producing and
using hydrogen for fuel. And I agree, any alternative energy plan needs to
be implemented alongside improvements in transportation and the
infrastructure to go with it.
What sucks, and Bethey also pointed this out to me, is that the energy
consumption and resulting pollution, and no set guidelines on actually
developing the technology totally defeats the whole purpose of going with
hydrogen in the first place.
>But of course, the money's not there. It's being spent on a "war on
>terror" or some such Orwellian horseshit.
Look at the situation with Iraq and how at one time the US *supported* Iraq
and you can see a similarity to the whole "Oceania is at war with Eurasia,
allied with Eastasia, always has been like that" situation Orwell depicted
in "1984", along with Oceania's propaganda machine overlooking the fact that
at sometime in their recent history, Eastasia was the enemy and Eurasia was
their ally.
>What was it Ben Franklin said about liberty and security? I forgot.
When people trade liberty for security, they get Bush for president.
welcome manuel :)
congrats Jim :)
happy birthday Julie :)
Brian- your "Prez's Gone Crazy" is probably a very accurate depiction of how
Bush is planning the coming war.
teunis- interesting music choices. Queensryche has always been one of my
favorites. Interesting futuristic/technology themes in some of their 80s
material. Contrary to what some people think, "Mindcrime" was *not* the
only Queensryche release ;)
How's the play coming along?
jessica- surefire thing that's worked for me to avoid getting sick of the
crap that's passed off as news on CNN and the other main news outlets has
been to listen to NPR and World Radio Network (online at wrn.org) as well as
the BBC World Service (carried overnight on some NPR stations). And if your
local cable system carries it, there's Newsworld International.
Ade- congrats to your cousin :)
Cartoon Tori? saw it, still can't believe it!
welcome back dani :)
cyndi wrote:
>Jessica told of her Roe VS Wade anniversary day.. and of those idjuts
>steeeeeaaaling over 1000 crosses, the nerve!
yeah, they had nothing to burn that night!
> *** Does Fuzzy Logic Tickle? digest ***
Not to be confused with Fuzz Logic, which is the thought process of a police
officer ;)
welcome back jewel :)
Brian wrote about pot smoking and thinking deep thoughts:
>It certainly does, but it can make you intensely paranoid as well.
Not entirely true. I've been paranoid my whole life, and I've never smoked
pot ;)
welcome candie :)
and welcome mychelle :)
violet- must be expensive, bribing the Sandmen all these years ;)
War-
There have been some very excellent things posted here about the possible
war with Iraq, and I can't think of anything that hasn't been so well
articulated so far (Bethey, Steve, Teunis, Brian, Jim G, Roxanne- well
done!) but one thing I have been thinking about is this: Is it just me, or
does it seem like the US media is reving up with a perverse enthusiasm about
the prospect of having a war to cover? Look at CNN, FOX news, and MSNBC,
and you'll see title graphics on the reports about the Iraq situation done
in a way that makes a future war a planned part of their programming! Like
they want to relive what CNN was doing during the 1991 war.
The "perverse enthusiasm" doesn't seem like a new thing- I've seen similar
things during coverage of other conflicts or disasters, such as the way the
local reporters here in San Antonio seem to have way too much fun covering
the bad thunderstorms and floods we get from time to time or the occasional
ice storms that hit in the winter. Getting off on covering crisis, death
and destruction- if only they'd show the same zeal when positive things are
happening. Look at what happens when a large catastrophe occurs that gets
national or international coverage- more of that "morbid enthusiasm", and a
full throttle onslaught of technical details as if there's a concerted
effort to tell the story without having to put a human face on the tragedy
(for example during the coverage of a plane crash).
Granted, I know I'm in the odd position of being an American who openly
despises American media for the most part. But I can't help but notice that
it really does come across as if US reporters are actually revelling in the
prospect of covering a war. CNN in particular seems to have lost its way
after the end of the last Persian Gulf War and over the years has tried to
re-create that atmosphere with their coverage of other events and ongoing
stories, at the expense of uh, actually reporting on what's happening in the
rest of the world.
Hope I don't sound like a snob. I just get sick of the way things are
reported via the US media outlets.
before I go- bethey, excellent Columbia tribute.
later everyone!
Simon
contact me at: AOL IM: PhoenyxxS MSN: phoenyxx
ICQ: 155394538 Yahoo: phoenyxx2002
"Mankind is led into the darkness beyond our world by the inspiration of
discovery and the longing to understand. Our journey into space will go on."
US official on the morning of the Columbia disaster,
February 1, 2003
Columbia tribute links:
http://astronautix.com/articles/iftndies.htm
http://astronautix.com/articles/higlight.htm
http://astronautix.com/articles/staation.htm
http://www.ishaah.com/flash/Shuttle.htm
http://www.shrox.com/ColumbiaBig.jpg
http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/view?p=12&uid=904355&gid=1652603
Remember Apollo 1, Soyuz 1, Soyuz 11, Challenger, Columbia, and Atlantis
-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o
[top]
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 23:00:45 +1100
From: Brian Cooper <byteme@smartchat.net.au>
To: Really Deep Thrusts Right Now <rdtrn@torithoughts.org>
Subject: war - what is it good for?
With a little help from Eminem, here's Shultzie:
"Now this looks like a job for me so everybody just follow me/ cuz we need
a little controversy, cuz it feels so left-wing without me"
Anyone get the feeling this is what Brad's all about? Sure, I could fill
this list up with left-wing propaganda just like Brad does with his
right-wing propaganda, but frankly I like to speak for myself and not hide
behind other people's words. Besides, both extremes of politics and the
press have said a lot of stupid things. It's up to all of you to decide
which bits to swallow and which to spit out. At the moment, we all need a
very large bucket.
For the Reader's Digest version of this post, the war on Iraq will go ahead
and the United Nations is completely ineffectual. Skip the rest if you're
sick of the subject.
I haven't really given my opinion on the forthcoming war against Iraq, but
I have given enough clues. I just gave one then. Right from the start there
was no doubt that the U.S. fully intended to invade Iraq, everything that
has been done so far is just for show. All the hot air that's been
generated in the U.N. is just that, hot air. It's to create the illusion
that due process in international law has been attempted. If the U.N.
successfully disarmed Iraq, it would have been a miracle.
Look at things from Saddam Hussein's point of view as a dictatorial despot
whose grip on power is solely through total domination. To give anyone
concessions and effectively disarm would be a show of weakness on his
behalf, which would seriously undermine his rule. It would be a downhill
slide from there. He's also got an enemy in Iran right across the border
who would love nothing more than to take a chance if he was weakened.
Basically, he's caught between a rock and a hard place because of his own
actions and the U.S. knows this and are using it to their advantage.
Why is the U.S. so adamant about Iraq having biological, chemical and
nuclear capabilities? They gave it to them. During Iraq's wars with Iran,
the U.S. provided them with samples of biological agents plus information
on how to create biological and chemical weapons. Saddam has proven he used
that information well by using weapons of mass destruction on Iran and the
Kurds.
Does this give the U.S. the right to invade a sovereign state and depose
its leader? No. It wouldn't be the first time they've tried it either.
Would I shed a tear if this happened? No. I'm a realist. Saddam has got to go.
The danger of the U.S. and its coalition partners invading without U.N.
approval is of bringing down the U.N., which is the only mechanism in the
world for keeping the peace. If they go, anarchy could prevail. the U.N. is
also a toothless tiger, hampered by its structure and the countries that
ultimately hold the balance of power there. Funny how the countries that
have veto rights are the traditional owners of weapons of mass destruction.
Why are France, China and Russia likely to veto any proposal that involves
an invasion? It's because all three countries have deals with Saddam in
place to develop Iraqi oil fields should U.N. embargoes on trade be
removed. From their point of view, they can't count on any future Iraqi
government keeping those contracts and they fear the U.S. will set up a
puppet administration, giving all the oil to them. To deny the impending
war is about oil is naive. Sure, it might not be about the U.S. controlling
the oil, but the fear they will is enough to make it about oil.
What can the U.N. do about both disarming Saddam and making sure it isn't
an oil war? Not much unless those with the most to lose financially have a
greater say in it and are on the ground making sure the weapons inspections
are effective. How can this be achieved, when Saddam is a master at hiding
his armaments? Speed and force. Those countries that demand the inspections
continue should supply troops, helicopters and aircraft to be at the
disposal of the weapons inspectors. Taking all day to drive to a potential
site is a wasted exercise. Yet if inspectors could be anywhere within
minutes, unannounced, with neutral forces to back them up should any
resistance be met. Things will be found in no time if they are there and if
they aren't, well they won't find anything. This is never likely to happen,
so invasion is the only feasible method. How to change the minds of China,
Russia and France? Have any contracts already made with Iraq held
enforceable by the U.N.
But a unilateral decision for the U.S. to invade is fraught with peril. It
says to the world that the U.N. is hamstrung and whether for right or
wrong, it can't make a decision. If the U.S. has its way without widespread
approval, it will encourage other nations to flout international law. North
Korea is testing this right now. They also know they're the next likely
target of U.S. action, as George W. Bush has already made them part of the
"Axis Of Evil". You can be sure that North Korea aren't joking either, as
their power base is founded on the same principles as Iraq's.
Is removing Saddam from power about removing someone responsible for
genocide? I'd like to think that's what it's all about, but he has been
committing atrocities against his own people and his enemies since a time
when he was supported by the U.S. government. For the U.S. to be
self-righteous about this now is hypocritical. Is it right for an ally to
be a butcher, but not if they're an enemy?
The fact Saddam is still in power has to be questioned. Why wasn't he
removed during the first Gulf War, when a U.N. supported, U.S. driven
alliance had a free ticket to do as they pleased? He wasn't removed then
because it would have created a power vacuum in the Middle East. Now that
Afghanistan has been dealt with, there's really only Iran to worry about,
which is probably what makes removing Saddam now an attractive proposition.
But couldn't all this trouble now have been avoided a long time ago?
Saddam's rule is also a sign of how ineffectual the International Criminal
Court (ICC) is. If ever there was anyone that deserved to be hauled in
front of it, it's him. Iraq probably never even signed on for it and why
would they? But it's also a joke that the U.S. refused to sign on, either
as a sign of what they thought of it, or for the fear that just about every
president still living could be hauled in front of it. Australia only
signed on at the last minute and the talk now is that if our troops go in
with the U.S. and British, they could face prosecution for being part of an
unauthorised war.
Let's fantasize for a bit. Say Iraq really has disposed of all its nasty
weapons or does so freely tomorrow, for all the world to see. Would the war
still go ahead? Yes, because the U.S. government would still not believe it
and their ultimate aim would still be to remove Saddam.
All the protests in the world will have no effect on the impending war. The
roles have been cast and the script has already been written for months, if
not years. To many world sized egos are at stake for anyone to back down.
All that matters now is the result. While the war will probably be a brief
one, it could be years or even decades before history could decide who was
right, who was wrong and ultimately, who won.
For your information Brad, the silent majority isn't in favour of peace.
They're also not in favour of war either, UNLESS there is the support of
the United Nations. Polls in just about every country in the Western world
bear this out, which is something one of the articles you sent ignored
completely.
I'd appreciate it in future if you'd not try to put words into my mouth,
Brad. There are enough already in there without your assistance. It's also
clear you completely miss the point of political satire.
Brian
o-o-o o-o-o o-o-o o-o-o o-o-o o-o-o o-o-o o-o-o o-o-o o-o-o
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