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From:
rdtrn@torithoughts.org
Date:
Wed, 26 Mar 2003 04:26:01 -0800
Subject:
RDT Right Now #1807
To:
Recipient List Suppressed:;
Do not hit reply to unsubscribe. To unsub, send a message to:
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with "unsubscribe" in the subject and body.
o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o
Really Deep Thoughts Right Now Volume 03 : Issue #1807
.
o - O - O - O - O - O - O - O - o
. o o .
o o
O "Thoughts right now... O
o What will become of me, o
o Become of her, become of we?" o
. o o .
O O
O - o - o - o - o - o - o - o - O
o .
o
o
o
Tori Amos, "Thoughts"
In this issue:
o-o-o-o-o-o-o
ADMIN: personal attacks [ admin@torithoughts.org ]
Where is everyone? [ "Simon Booth" <sbooth1@satx.rr.com> ]
more replies.... [ Roxanne Rieske <rokzane@dimensional ]
war and rants and rants and Tori... [ Teunis Peters <winterlion@greycloak ]
more thoughts... [ Teunis Peters <winterlion@greycloak ]
Respect [ ericwithac@t-online.de (Eric Thelen ]
Re: RDT Right Now #1808 [ Cyndi S Crawford <cyndi.crawford@ju ]
Life is what you make it [ "Beth Coulter" <betheqt@voicenet.co ]
question. [ Cyndi S Crawford <cyndi.crawford@ju ]
Simple matter [ "Grzegorz Pawlowski" <sup330@msn.co ]
Missed a digest? Pick up a copy at the RDTRN archives:
http://www.torithoughts.org/rdtrn/archives
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Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 03:39:54 -0800
From: admin@torithoughts.org
Subject: ADMIN: personal attacks
I would like to see members focus on topics at hand instead of making
personal attacks on other members (i.e., calling them names or insulting
them).
Note the difference:
a) I disagree because...
b) You're an idiot.
A is cool.
B is abusive.
Criticize the merits or faults of opinions and arguments, not individuals.
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Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 02:45:09 -0600
From: "Simon Booth" <sbooth1@satx.rr.com>
To: "RDT Right Now" <rdtrn@torithoughts.org>
Subject: Where is everyone?
Haven't seen a digest in a while.
I'm worried: My parents are leaving on Tuesday for a 3 week trip to the UK
(visiting my sister and her husband in Lancaster) and I can't shake the bad
feeling I've been having the past few weeks. A while back I had a dream
where I was watching news coverage of a plane crash- on the TV was a
computer graphic map showing the flight path of a plane that had left the US
East Coast and had gone down in the mid-Atlantic. While watching this unfold
on TV I'm on the phone and someone on the other end is screaming at me "the
plane crashed- they're dead" over and over. I told my parents about the
dream and while they understand my concern their trip is still on. On one
hand I'm happy for them- first vacation for them together in a few years,
and visiting Europe is something my mom has wanted to do for a long time,
plus for my father it's the first major trip for him in a very long time
that wasn't a business trip. On the other hand, I can't shake the feeling
of utter cold dread. And the current situation with the war just adds to
the terrorist worries of the post Sept. 11th 2001 period.
I feel helpless- compelled to do *something* even though I know there's no
stopping their trip.
Tell me it's just me being more paranoid than usual.
Simon
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Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 10:16:09 -0700
From: Roxanne Rieske <rokzane@dimensional.com>
To: "Really Deep Thoughts, Right Now" <rdtrn@torithoughts.org>
Subject: more replies....
Beth wrote:
> Iraqis own most of the oil operations in Iraq. According to the "Food
> for
> Oil" program, France, Germany and Russia get the majority of their oil
> from
> Iraq, with long term contracts. The US will control those contracts
> while
> the new government is being set up.
They own the oil fields. There are very few Iraqi companies that
actually own drilling contracts.
Total Petroleum (a French company), owns between 15-20 percent of the
drilling contracts in the Middle East and the Horn of Africa.
They have drilling contracts in the Northen Iraqi oil fields.
> And the US supplied chemical, biological and nuclear materials to Iraq
> from
> 1979 - 1990, because he was our friend (and he was supposed to be our
> puppet, but he's a bad man and didn't obey) against Iran.
I am well aware of this fact. I have plainly stated this knowledge in
the past. My point is that we were not the only ones supplying them with
weapons and the means to make chemical and biological weapons.
I've written to Beth in a private e-mail that most Westerners have no
idea of the true nature of Islamic countries and their regimes.
If you are not a Muslim, you have no rights other than the right to be a
live, and if you are not Christrian or Jewish you don't even that basic
right. This gives them a consciousness free to kill, toture, and
imprision whomever they want. This is why Islam is the only religion
with terrorist groups (I'm not including miniscule cults under the
fabric of religion), and why the term "Islamic Jihad" even exists.
And, if you've never read the Quran (which I have), you would never
realise how much of a true bastard the prophet Muhammad was.
If the word "militant" could be described with a picture, Muhammad's
face would be the definition. Islamic culture is not pro-peace unless
everyone converts to Islam. As long as we have countries dominated by
Islamic theocracies, we will always have this kind of madness in the world.
Now we have to ask ourselves: What kind of a world do we trully want for
our future generations? We have to act NOW, because the future is always
right around the corner.
I'm tired and worn out with this debate. Wars are events that can never
be agreed upon.
Roxanne
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Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 13:52:44 -0800 (PST)
From: Teunis Peters <winterlion@greycloaklabs.ca>
To: RDT Right Now <rdtrn@torithoughts.org>
Subject: war and rants and rants and Tori...
on war:
the war is evil
no need to take it out on the troops though (good choice Cyndi :)
on US disarmament:
last I heard there's talks about this
getting the US to disarm would be a -very- good thing but as they're the
chief warmakers and weapons dealers in the world that'd be hard...
I'm in favour of UN investigations of weapons in the US....
anyways.. (not likely I know)
I'm in too much fuzz to remember how I discovered Tori. Only that she
speaks in a way I only wish I could most of the time....
my grandmother passed away this last weekend.. hasn't hit me yet but she's
the one that worked in the Dutch resistance (more or less) in WWII... and
she had good memories of US soldiers then.
WARNING: rest of this email is a rant. more or less. Decided to skip the
rational and give Brad Shultz what he wants (for fun). Most of what I
describe could (easily) be described as inflamitory. Also most of it is
decidedly a lot more complicated than I've bothered to go into...
and of the terrorizing destructive WWII US army, our noble troll Brad Shultz
writes:
> You come from a country that terrorized the world from 1914 thru 1945.
so speaketh one from the land of the Ku Klux Klan and other popular
agencies. How many are YOU a member of? Most Germans were -not- national
socialists - and many of THOSE that signed up before Hitler regretted it.
You guys were also going to -join- with them until your president forced you
out of it in a rather well-organized conspiracy (Pearl Harbour).
> You must have ancestors that were involved in that. The U.S. fixed
> that problem and then protected you from 1946 through the demise of the
> Soviet empire. And we are still there protecting you from your foolish
> ways.
*hahahahahahaha*
no
the US (providing weapons and agents to both sides) didn't make that much
difference in Europe per se - at the point they finally showed up (late of
course, picking the winners side) the war had already turned. And then they
killed every german they could find... flip side it WAS the US who
provided initial funding to both Germany and Japan... for their later lead
to becoming industrial leaders in the world.
also the US army is believed (particularily in France anyways) of doing more
damage to the land and people in WWII than the Nazi did...
and it's more like that the Soviets prevented the US from attempting world
domination... they figured they'd have it as people woke up to their views
being right so they didn't try that hard (oversimplification and thankfully
wrong).
> The U.S. has never used it's power to colonialize others. If we wanted
> to we could take over the world.
*BWAHAHAHAHAHA*
We kicked your asses when you tried to invade us... 3 times! (although the
best was in 1812 when you invaded with 100 men for every 1 of ours - and we
still won). Most recent invasion ~1868-ish...
but tell that to:
Mexico, most of South America, the Philipeans, Iraq, Vietnam, Korea
> And I am of German descent.
Lucky you. Was your family rounded up into US concentration camps in WWII
like many were?
> Those of you who who dare to compare our President to the evil people in
> the world's history ahve not read your history and don't know our
> President. You are evil yourselves. You are scum.
you are a troll looking for flames. It's kind of fun to answer but I think
I'm signing off for now.
your president -is- a war criminal according to current world law. also an
encourager of assassination and other crimes. possibly also connected with
the brutal treatment of prisoners in the US taken after the sept11 tragedy.
is he evil? well, yes. Certainly ill-mannered, megalomaniac and a lousy
diplomat.
he's not competent enough to stand next to most of the historical villains
though.
G'day, eh? :)
- Winterlion, glad not to live in the US
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Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 14:24:13 -0800 (PST)
From: Teunis Peters <winterlion@greycloaklabs.ca>
To: "RDT Right Now [yes yes :]" <rdtrn@torithoughts.org>
Subject: more thoughts...
I think part of the difficulty with now is that the Iraqi people are
closer and more familiar to us than those in say, Nicaragua. It's not to
say it's an easier situation or harder or anything, but Iraq area -is- one
of the prime birthplaces of the western culture....
for better or worse this is closer to home.
add to that for those in Europe, this is the first time the US has really
been active anywhere near there in quite some time - on it's own. The
Soviets kept them out of acting directly...
I don't know how I'm dealing with this but since I'm by and large ignoring
popular media and trying to deal with some home issues, that's about all I
can figure at this point.
so far the home issues that worry me:
Family - as I mentioned I just lost my grandmother. We've all been
preparing for this for weeks now but it was a lot sooner than anyone
expected and I don't have the foggiest how to deal with it yet. She lived
two blocks from me - the closest of all of my family.
Local area: the area I live in is one of the highest-crime areas in BC.
It's starting to look nicer and be nicer to wander through but I'd be hard
pressed to describe it as -safe- yet. It's a very strange neighbourhood.
BC: US's illegal tarrifs are hurting things hard here. Jobs are hard to
get and as a result I'm working for a lot lower income than I'm happy
with. And I have a lot of friends that aren't working at all... Also the
incompetence in the government here has resulted in many thousands more
out of work that otherwise wouldn't be...
Canada: Not many worries at the moment. I like living here, even with
silly and crooked politicians.
I worry that the anti-Islamic movement stateside's going to gain momentum.
Vancouver is one of the Holy cities of Islam (officially) so I'd say it's
pretty close to home for me. (Vancouver is also holy to a number of other
peoples and religions :)
I'm worried that the US is going to attack us. or at least attempt to
take us over on many levels. The trouble with an arrogant warmongering
neighbour...
I'm worried that US interests will make my work (as a computer programmer)
harder or even rediculously stupid with that silly DMCA.
oh well.
to be entirely clear it's the family thing I'm worrying most now. The
rest is a distraction. I don't know about you all out there, but for me
my family - both the blood ones and the one I chose as family - are more
important to me than any of these other concerns.
that's all for now.
G'day, eh? :)
- Winterlion
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Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 23:20:57 +0100
From: ericwithac@t-online.de (Eric Thelen)
To: "RDT Right Now" <rdtrn@torithoughts.org>
Subject: Respect
Hi everybody.
Roxanne:
> Oh Please...I wasn't saying the US had nothing to do with it. Do not
> insult my intelligence by assuming that. I was trying to show that
> France and Germany were not except from blame either and that France has
> a lot more to gain from not having a war than many people realize. The
> PMs of these two countries were acting like they had nothing to do with
> it from various press conferences I've been watching with the UN
> Security Council.
Well, OK, thanks for clarifying - on the level of governments, I understand
your statement. The politicians in Germany and France in general certainly
cannot claim total 'innocence' in this context. They also are no pacifists
in general. And it can very well be that economic reasons on various levels
influence political decisions. I personally do believe, though, that there
are many other good reasons, too.
And I don't think that such economic reasons play a major role for the
millions of people, who protest on the streets.
But yes, we have to consider all the motivations for certain statements on
all sides. Because it is never just black and white.
For example, one major reason for the German chancellor to strongly argue
against military action already back in August last year was the fact that
he had to face a general election. His clear statements were very popular at
the time and might have helped him to get reelected. I do not believe that
this was his only motivation, but it might have been one of the components
for his decision to behave the way he did.
What do you all believe are Mr. Bush's major reasons to enter this war at
this time?
> I know this wasn't addressed at me, but YES. I would go and fight if I
> could. If I had children, I would cheer them on if they decided to
> enlist.
> Lots of people aren't willing to risk their own lives in order stand by
> their own convictions and beliefs, but I'm not one of them.
That is a very courageous statement, for which I truly have a large amount
of respect.
It shows me that you are serious about your opinion and willing to consider
the consequences.
Brad:
> You come from a country that terrorized the world from 1914 thru 1945.
Indeed.
Why am I not surprised that you are bringing this up instead of discussing
the arguments I presented?
> You must have ancestors that were involved in that.
Potentially - and I am not proud of that. But I am also not apologizing.
Unfortunately, I wasn't there to stop anybody from doing what was done. And
I am not sure whether I would have had the courage to do something about it.
(This is a very difficult question, if you think about it. For me, it would
probably have depended on many parameters.)
But the least I can do is try to learn from what has happened. And make sure
that it is never forgotten and contribute to never allowing this to ever
happen again.
Being aware of history is an important aspect for future generations.
> The U.S. fixed
> that problem and then protected you from 1946 through the demise of the
> Soviet empire.
Well, the U.S. and a few others, originally including the Soviets
themselves.
The protection part was mutual interest, but yes, the respect for America is
usually very high in Germany, because of the support this country has
received in those days. Unfortunately, the current U.S. president right now
damages this respect by not accepting some general international rules and
by not showing strong diplomatic skills.
JFK, for example, is still a hero in Germany. I know many Germans, who say
that they had cried when they had heard about him having been killed.
> The U.S. has never used it's power to colonialize others. If we wanted
> to we could take over the world.
Well, the first part is interesting, since the question would be: Who IS the
U.S.? Wasn't it originally mostly build by power, taking parts of the land
away from those who lived there before? Would the U.S. exist without
'colonialization'?
(Part of Tori's most recent album is about it - so maybe you should listen
to it once more... Oh - and didn't you recently post this 'joke' about
'Cowboys and Indians'...? Not necessarily an element of history to be proud
of.)
For the second part: Good luck...
Unfortunately, there would not be much left of the world, which would still
be worth living in, after you are done.
> And I am of German descent.
OK. Do you know when your family came to the U.S. and what caused them to
leave the 'old world'?
> Eric---You are lucky the U.S. was born. You would not be able to post
> what you did without us. In fact you would not have a puter much less a
> light bulb without us.
Don't forget the 'Care' packages - I wouldn't even have anything to eat
without them... :)
You must be very happy that you were actually born in the U.S. - it might
have totally confused you if you had happened to be born in any other area
of the world...
But anyway, nice talking to you! You are giving this list more color - even
though you seem to have specialized on a very particular one... It is always
good to consider different opinions - give it a try, it's fun.
Everybody enjoy your lives,
Eric (with a 'c')
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Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 16:40:48 -0500
From: Cyndi S Crawford <cyndi.crawford@juno.com>
To: rdtrn@torithoughts.org
Subject: Re: RDT Right Now #1808
Phew.. spring break is almost heeeeeeeeeerrrrrre.. about time,
too. I'm getting antsy to DO SOMETHING.. and I just got home from school.
><
Brad said: "before you have peace you must have victory. Learn it live
it love it."
I like that phrase, I do.. but.. victory.. as in.. winning a war?
Sometimes, war *is* necessary.. I just don't think that it was--not this
soon anyway--this time. Now Brad, could you be a sweetheart and converse
with us about other stuff too? We may all be wrapped up in the war, but
we can't talk about it incessantly or else we'll lose our bloody minds!
Believe me.. I know. *deranged giggle*
Roxanne said: "I know this wasn't addressed at me, but YES. I would go
and fight if I could. If I had children, I would cheer them on if they
decided to enlist."
So would I. This is where I'm more or less torn on the war issue.
I think it's unnecessary, and even if it WAS necessary, I think we jumped
right in WAY too soon, but I still would go to battle if I were in the
Army. I come from a very pro-military family, so some of that influence
has definitely rubbed off on me. I can't join, however, cuz I'm a little
too deaf.. hee hee! that poor recruiter.. a recruiter once called me back
in high school, looking to get me enlisted.. I was like "oh I'd LOVE to
join, my dad and my brother and my sister did!" and I'm *sure* he was
thinking "WOOHOO!" and then I went "...but I can't. I'm hearing
impaired." rofl.. that poor recruiter....
Bethey said: "I just have to add that she also has a cow cream pitcher
that looks like it's barfing anytime you pour milk out of it into your
tea. The open well is in its body, and the spout is its mouth, and the
handle is its tail. It's delightfully fun to use.<
ohhhh lordy. a milk-barfing cow.. XD what will they think of
next? a milk-peeing one? rofl.. THAT would be twisted. indeed.. lol..
Brad said: "Those of you who dare to compare our President to the evil
people in the world's history have not read your history and don't know
our President."
Personally, I don't think he's evil. I do, however, think he's
dumb to blaze right into this so soon. That's all. I wouldn't. I'd wait
and consider all the possibilities that I could--and if I absolutely HAD
to go to war with somebody, I'd attack North Korea. They're a much more
significant and immediate threat to us than bleedin' IRAQ, for pete's
sake. Basically.. getting rid of the really big bad guy first before
sweeping the little ones out the door later. But no I don't think Bush is
evil.. just irrational.. and jumping to conclusions way too quickly.
*coughs* Again, I don't want to end this post on the subject of
war, so... let's see.. I'm gonna make a little plea here.. let's do more
Director's Chair games! I love 'em. It's the best idea I've heard so far!
*applauds Julie H.* *pokes the rest of the RDTRN world* c'mon, don't be
shy.. :D
Sincerely, Cyndi S. Crawford
http://www.icenine.org/cyndi/ --
http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/368/ciara_blaze.html --
http://learntothink0.tripod.com/learntothinkagain/ --
http://www.geocities.com/keyyooo/clique.html
"I know we're dying / and there's no sign of a parachute / we scream in
cathedrals / why can't it be beautiful / why does there gotta be a
sacrifice?" -- Tori Amos
________________________________________________________________
Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today
Only $9.95 per month!
Visit www.juno.com
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Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 18:34:23 -0500
From: "Beth Coulter" <betheqt@voicenet.com>
To: "RDT Right Now" <rdtrn@torithoughts.org>
Subject: Life is what you make it
Hey y'all!
Guess who made the Dean's List for the first time? I've had the GPA for it
since I started back in school, but never got onto Dean's/Honor List. I'm
more excited than I was getting my invite to Phi Theta Kappa. There is some
sort of reception in two weeks where I get to hobnob with all the other
smarties. Why do I fear it's going to be a boring party? Well, I'll just
start with Politics and get things rolling good. ;)
One of the Peace Coalition members is also editor of the school paper and
one of the head DJ's for the campus radio station. She liked my "On the Eve
of War" poem so much she asked if I would come record it so she can play it
on the radio. We chose John Lennon's "Mind Games" as the background. Then
we read the "Pledge of Resistance" together with "Imagine" backing it and
that gets played every shift. When I get a copy of the CD, I'll figure out
how to put at least one of them on my web site (I don't know how large a
sound file is, so we'll see). A professor at Lehigh University also asked
permission to read my poem to one of his classes. All I can say is that
most of what I write is a gift to me, and I can't take much of the credit.
I simply type/write down the words in my head.
I'm trying to arrange a "Peace Party" with Peace Punch and Freedom Fries
(and maybe dancing) to acquaint the campus with the Coalition. We're
writing
a mission statement to say we are Pro-Peace (not anti-war) with a special
focus on supporting the "girls left behind". We're getting together to make
yellow ribbons with purple and white accents (Purple-Prince of Peace,
White-Goodness and Mercy) to pass out to the student body and writing
support letters to the troops for everyone to sign.
I thought Mike Moore was GREAT on the Oscar's last night. He warned people
that they shouldn't let him on the stage: "Not This week, not in This
country". But he really deserved the award. Bowling for Columbine was the
best movie I've seen. The whole "fear-based" society really rings true as
"War TV" blares across the airwaves.
Off to work my ass off changing the world. I couldn't ask for a harder
job, but if it happens, it sure will be rewarding.
Oh, Rox the Nutty Baker Baker and I are real cool, so no more words are
needed.
Fairy Blessings,
Bethey
I'm OK when Everything's not OK
cause it's the Fairies Revenge they say
And I have always been a Fairy.
www.bethcoulter.com
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Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 23:43:27 -0500
From: Cyndi S Crawford <cyndi.crawford@juno.com>
To: rdtrn@torithoughts.org
Subject: question.
This isn't an attack at ANYBODY. Not at Roxanne, not at Brad, not at
ANYBODY, I'm just curious.
Roxanne already said that she would--if she could--join up and help fight
the war. I already stated that I would do as I was told if I could join
too. Now I'm going to pose this question to the rest of RDTRN--pro war or
not. Would you join the military and go to battle, too, if you could?
Sincerely, Cyndi S. Crawford
http://www.icenine.org/cyndi/ --
http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/368/ciara_blaze.html --
http://learntothink0.tripod.com/learntothinkagain/ --
http://www.geocities.com/keyyooo/clique.html
"I know we're dying / and there's no sign of a parachute / we scream in
cathedrals / why can't it be beautiful / why does there gotta be a
sacrifice?" -- Tori Amos
________________________________________________________________
Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today
Only $9.95 per month!
Visit www.juno.com
-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o
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Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 14:37:00 +0200 (South Africa Standard Time)
From: "Grzegorz Pawlowski" <sup330@msn.com>
To: <rdtrn@torithoughts.org>
Subject: Simple matter
Brad Shultz RDTRN #1808
>Those of you who who dare to compare our President to the evil people in
>the world's history ahve not read your history and don't know our
>President. You are evil yourselves. You are scum.
Bush will go down in history books as the president who sold out on
democracy.
He has invaded a country, and gone against the UN. There is nothing more to
it. Politically he has reached the level of Bin Laden.
God bless America, you'll need all the help you can get.
Grzegorz
sup330@msn.com
ICQ - 3011 72576
QQ - 15236
o-o-o o-o-o o-o-o o-o-o o-o-o o-o-o o-o-o o-o-o o-o-o o-o-o
*** Famous Last Words #147: "Those noises are probably nothing." digest ***
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_ .
/\ , _ _ ( _ )_
{Oo\{o\ .=. ( ` )_ (_ _(_ ,)
{o: \:.\ / \ ( ) `) |
{O:' \:.-'_.-\_)____ (_ (_ . _) _) \ _ /
{o:. /`~('-./-----.\ -= (_) =-
}o: // /| `/\ ( ) / \
{O:'// /-' /\/\ ( ` ) . ) |
}o-/( <___ \'/ /\/\/\ (_, _( ,_)_)
/o./ ;--._)====* -\/\/\/
`"`\ \ /.\ `""`
\ \
\ \ wWWWw wWWWw
/`\ ) vVVVv (___) wWWWw (___) vVVVv
|/| | vVVVv (___) ~O~ (___) vVVVv ~H~ (___) vVVVv
_// \| (___) ~H~ \| ~U~ (___) |/ ~T~ (___)
| / || \~T~/ \| \ |/ \| / \~G~/ \| \ |/ \~S~/
|/ / | \\|// \\|// \\|// \\|/// \\|// \\|// \\\|/// \\|//
` `\| ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
` thanks for visiting this pretty garden
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