RDTRN Archive - RDT Right Now #1446

RDT Right Now #1446

From: rdtrn@torithoughts.org
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 00:11:56 -0700
Subject: RDT Right Now #1446
To: rdtrn@torithoughts.org

Do not hit reply to unsubscribe. To unsub, send a message to: <rdtrn-request@torithoughts.org> with "unsubscribe" in the subject and body. o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o Really Deep Thoughts Right Now Volume 01 : Issue #1446 . o - O - O - O - O - O - O - O - o . o o . o o O "Thoughts right now... O o What will become of me, o o Become of her, become of we?" o . o o . O O O - o - o - o - o - o - o - o - O o . o o o Tori Amos, "Thoughts" In this issue: o-o-o-o-o-o-o and all the papers say [ Beth Winegarner <echoes@atlantic.de ] Sandia [ "Bonnie J. Wayne" <bonnie@emrtc.nmt ] your mom's so fat, when she sat on a [ Tara Hughes <torilovr13@yahoo.com> ] *come play with us, Danny* [ Linda <lindagyne@yahoo.com> ] to jessica parsons [ "Juan Manuel Torreblanca" <cheefoos ] worse american [ wildkoba <wildkoba@wildkoba.com> ] Democracy V. Republic [ Brad Shultz <springhaze999@home.com ] Re: RDT Right Now #1445 [ clara j stowell <jewella_deville@ju ] cigarette covers [ Violet <fluffy@annihilist.com> ] nonlinear [ winterlion <winterlion@fsj.net> ] eye i, aye! aye! aye! [ "h." <orphea@pacbell.net> ] alligance? allegence? alligence? [ "Bethany Rusen" <hejira@u-town.com> ] ___________________________________________________________________ ___________________________________________________________________ Really Deep Quote: none today ___________________________________________________________________ ___________________________________________________________________ Missed a digest? Pick up a copy at the RDTRN archives: http://www.torithoughts.org/rdtrn/archives -o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o [top] Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 10:31:35 -0700 From: Beth Winegarner <echoes@atlantic.devin.com> To: RDT Right Now <rdtrn@torithoughts.org> Subject: and all the papers say Simon wrote: > I get upset about that as well- I know the media isn't trying to be > insensitive but it irks me when some tragedy is distilled down to stats and > numbers. I actually have found the opposite to be true. Since Sept. 12, the New York Times has been running, daily, a full page of information on people who died in the attacks. The editor has said that at this rate, he expects it'll take until next fall to get them all in. When someone asked whether people were still going to care in a year, he said he figured people would care more than ever. Although it takes a lot of work to track down the info to write even a short 200-word bio on someone's life, and most of the folks working on these items don't get their name on them, he said he's watched his reporters laughing and crying on the phone working on these things and feels they're probably getting a lot out of it. Likewise, Newsweek has been running some interesting stuff. This week they had a bunch of photos that were taken by a hidden camera at a bus stop in NYC which has a clear view of where the towers were. The looks on people's faces are so telling. They ran another photo series by a professional photographer who was killed when the second tower came down - he was taking photos right up to the moment it fell, and his cameras were recovered along with his body. He got some faces, probably all of them people who died along with him. They also included a piece about a half-dozen students at nearby Stuyvesant High School, talking about their reactions (they could see the plane attacks from the windows of their classrooms), including a few who lost parents in the attacks. My news intake has more or less been restricted to Newsweek, the SF Chronicle, NPR, the Marin Independent Journal, and news on yahoo and cnn.com. Some of those do more than others. But out here, we're not close to the attacks and it doesn't make as much sense to include bios of everyone who died the way the NY Times is - but all the local papers included lots about the Californians who died. So no, I don't think the media is turning people into statistics. Beth -- "Knowing and believing are two different things. Play by the silence. It's where you will begin, not where you will end." (Travis Meeks) _._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._ music reviews + stories + poetry + photography + collage + Watchers selkies + froud-faeries + esoterica + links = http://echoes.devin.com -o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o [top] Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 12:33:12 -0600 From: "Bonnie J. Wayne" <bonnie@emrtc.nmt.edu> To: rdtrn@torithoughts.org Subject: Sandia Simon asked, "does Sandia do anything else besides nuclear weapons research?" Sandia is a HUGE national laboratory that does ALL kinds of things. My boyfriend has a job there learning about network security and other computer stuff. I am hoping hoping hoping to get a job there as well. But I'm looking for something, maybe nanotechnology related, or at least something that advances medical technology. The lab does so many things. Pretty much anything science related, they have. So, in conclusion, I'm sure they have nuclear weapons research but that's just one subset of the many things they do. ************************ Then Simon mentioned the movie, 'Soldier', which I haven't seen. But it reminded me of a very wonderful book I read some time ago by Dean R. Koontz called 'Watchers'. (There's a movie for this book but, PLEASE, don't watch it. It's HORRIBLE and absolutely unrelated to the book!) ************************ > The Taliban > might not be true friends to the Afghan people, but they are their only > solution to misery. It sure seems to me that the Taliban is the REASON for the Afghan people's misery. Especially the women who are suffocating in their burqas. An example: A woman and her husband were on bicycles. She following him. A part of her ankle became exposed while pedaling. The Taliban unceremoniously remedied the situation by shooting the woman in the head. Can't have any exposed ankles tempting the pious men now can we? -- Bonnie J. Wayne Technical Editor Energetic Materials Research and Testing Center 801 Leroy Place, Socorro, NM 87801 bonnie@emrtc.nmt.edu -o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o [top] Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 12:01:24 -0700 (PDT) From: Tara Hughes <torilovr13@yahoo.com> To: rdtrn@torithoughts.org Subject: your mom's so fat, when she sat on a quarter, a booger came out of washington's nose. thanks, y'all, for the happy birthday wishes. next year, right before i begin my student teaching (hopefully, that's where it'll fall), i'll be 21. but that doesn't mean that i don't know how to hold my liquor, now... er, um.. 20 is like the second big-nothing year (19's the first). whoop-de-fucking-do-dah, i'm not a teenager. i'm pretty much one of the last of my friends to turn 20 (which i guess will make the big 2-1 a lot more fun, with lots of others to get piss-ass-drunk with). anyway, i wanted to pass on a little note to simon, who i suppose will get a kick out of this. i began working at waldenbooks (i get a whole 33% off books, and even 40%, come christmastime) just last week. do you *know* how many stupid fucking dr. laura books there are? and do you *know* how slow they sell (or don't sell at all, whatever)? just thought i'd share. ===== .Е:*оо* :Е.it will all find its way in time.Е:*оо* :Е. read my journal. http://www.livejournal.com/users/ti __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com -o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o [top] Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 15:46:12 -0700 (PDT) From: Linda <lindagyne@yahoo.com> To: rdtrn@torithoughts.org Subject: *come play with us, Danny* I LOVE The Shining. I have a huge crush on Jack Nicholson (ok, so I'm weird), and he was incredibly creepy in this movie. Ooh, and those little girls in the elevator-- spooky. It is one of my all-time favorite movies. This brings to mind one of those movies that wasn't the most ingenious movies ever made, but had lots of exciting parts-- Twister. Not only do you get to hear Talula in the beginning, but then they show a clip of The Shining when they're at the drive-in.... ... simply the cat's pajamas (ooh, or Moonshine's pajamas {congratulations on the kitty!}). Beth posted: <<I wasn't going to post tonight & I'm very tired but I just saw this adorable Tori site & wanted to share. http://www.strange-little-girls.com/ Check out the cartoons, especially the first set by Paul Elia.>> Thanks for posting that despite your sleepiness. :) I would almost have to say that his drawings really helped me better understand what Tori's characters are "about". He really seemed to capture the essence of what she was trying to say in his pictures. And Simon, didn't you know? Of *course* you're one of the prestigious tribe of the long-post people! Long live the long-posters! I really wish I could post more, but I have tons of stuff to do (including eat dinner). Dammit, I have way too many tests next week, plus papers to do, plus the f'n GREs, and I'm attempting to apply to grad school. Rrarrrr... all will be okay. I don't really get stressed, I just get overly busy. ~Linda~ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com -o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o [top] Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 19:48:29 -0500 From: "Juan Manuel Torreblanca" <cheefooska@hotmail.com> To: rdtrn@torithoughts.org Subject: to jessica parsons I agree with you here: the people in the city of New York have earned being called heroes, I do see their reaction (as victims of the hugest terrorist attack that I can think of) as a really noble and brave one. but I don't know what to make of your reactions. I mean, do you feel better nurturing all this rage? this thirst for vengeance? because if you do, then I guess it can't be that bad for you... it would only be sad to me... and beyond my understanding. I guess what I'll say know has been said hundreds of times before in hundreds of similar situations, but I still think it's a good advice: if you are really so tired of this pro-peace movement, why don't you just ignore it? stay out of it. I do think that would be much better for you than getting angry about it because when you say that terrorists "don't deserve love and compassion!" what you are doing is showing us that you don't understand it (I'm not saying this to attack you) all I am saying is: who is talking about giving love and compassion to the terrorists? I am certainly not. Justice would of course mean having the people responsible for this pay a price suitable to what they did, and what they did is terrible... >the Taliban deserves all the bombs it gets. but do you think this bombs are ONLY affecting the Taliban? hundreds of civilians are already dead, did you know that? the innocent hurt by this war are as much a tragedy to me if they are Americans than they are if they are Afghans. I suppose that's all I should say. >Maybe you can keep me from ever being happy but you're not gonna stop me >from having fun... > --ani difranco if this is fun for you, go on. I'm going back to the world I'm trying to look up it's raining cheefooska juan _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp -o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o [top] Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 21:17:14 -0400 From: wildkoba <wildkoba@wildkoba.com> To: rdt <rdtrn@torithoughts.org> Subject: worse american > likewise, all the displaying of flags and "God Bless America" lately and > such equally creeps me the fuck out. I still don't understand how people can > experience a national tragedy and their first response is, "gonna hang up my > American flag!" I don't know. it just doesn't seem like a natural > progression to me. it doesn't HELP anything, except to assauge our national > conciousness and perhaps sell us on the idea that this bombing is the only > way to preserve our way of life. so then you must feel equally creeped the fuck out when gays and lesbians take to the streets after a tragedy and wave rainbow flags or related symbols and icons (e.g., the death of matthew shepard). you must not understand, then, how gays can experience a national tragedy and their first response is, "gonna wave my rainbow flag!" (this of course assumes that all gay people even actually run out and wave flags. but hey, if it can be assumed that everyone's been waving american flags as of late....). and i can't possibly imagine how that HELPS anything except to maybe sell us on the idea that the killing of an innocent man who happened to be gay will preserve the gay way of life?!? it's one thing to not want to pledge allegiance to the flag or say prayers, but if you're bothered by all the flags and patriotism being displayed, then you must hide under the bed a lot. with the plurality "symbols of expression" we're deluged with in times of crisis, you must be constantly "creeped the fuck out," i bet. ***** i don't mean to make the following an attack on any specific person here, but it just fucking amazes me how some people (some on this list) revel in "america bashing." these whiners bitchbitchbitch about how awful and wrong we are about seemingly everything, how we're a bunch of hypocritical terrorists, and (thankfully not here- yet) how we DESERVED WHAT WE GOT. i'm not here to try and make anybody here sing the praises of the US. i'm smart enough to know that there are some pretty awful fucking things going on in this country before and after "certain major events." but goddamnit, i never understood why some people just appear to be all about the "america bashing." it's as if every waking opportunity is spent trying to belittle the merits of this country with a constant flow of bitchbitchbitch and whinewhinewhine. but: a) i have never met a bitchbitchbitch-er or whinewhinewhiner able to offer a working solution or alternative to whatever problem they happened to be whinewhinewhining about. and b) those people always seem to forget it's that by virtue of living in the US that they're GIVEN THE RIGHT to bitchbitchbitch and whinewhinewhine as you please. i'm almost curious to see how some of these people would fare in places like iran, the sudan, rwanda, or afghanistan. so sure, whinewhinewhine and bitchbitchbitch to your heart's content. but i too have my rights, and i try to call it like it is. frankly, if you're THAT dissatisfied with the policies our government is taking, then either GET INVOLVED yourself or hop on the next flight to toronto, paris, sydney, tokyo, havana, moscow, calcutta or fucking mongolia, for all i care. several people before and after us have made one of the above choices and have managed to do well for themselves, one way or the other. but man, all this bitching and whining without action just seems like a fucking waste to me. wild koba ****************************************************************** david y. kobayashi - wildkoba@wildkoba.com - http://www.wildkoba.com wild koba's shack of funk - journals, visuals, et al. "i bring truth and understanding, i bring wit and wisdom fair- precious gifts beyond compare." -n. peart ****************************************************************** -o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o [top] Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 20:37:34 -0500 From: Brad Shultz <springhaze999@home.com> To: rdtrn@torithoughts.org Subject: Democracy V. Republic Hey you Toriphiles- The U. S. is not a democracy. It is a Republic. Big difference. A democracy is when you have a vote on all issues. Our founding fathers rejected a democracy. Madison and Jefferson wrote The Federalist Papers to explain what the new government was . Go read it if you please. Out -o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o [top] Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 21:20:35 -0700 From: clara j stowell <jewella_deville@juno.com> To: rdtrn@torithoughts.org Subject: Re: RDT Right Now #1445 hi. ...hi? what a boring way to start my first post. what i mean is... salutations! er... sure, that works. aaanyway. my name is jewel. i have been subscribed to this list before, but was forced to unsub due to a complete lack of time and internet access. a little about me: i'm originally from washington. went to high school and college, for a year, in minnesota, and as of two weeks ago, am now an oregon resident. i absolutely love tori and was motivated to rejoin the list when i got access to a reliable source of email. so here i am. i'm 20 and am about to start at the state hospital here as a "mental health therapy technician." big title for basically a direct-care giver. i wanted to respond to some of this rant about high school. i despised high school. especially my junior and senior year, when my best friends and brother graduated and moved away. for that last two years, i was no more tortured, harassed, bullied, per se, but i no longer had my posse to be there for me. it made things more difficult than i could have imagined. i isolated myself in books, spent all of my free time in the art room with the teacher - who was also a good friend, a confidant and a mentor. i, personally, didn't receive a great deal of direct harassment. a lot of girls pointing and giggling, people mumbling things under their breath so only i could hear... and believe me, that was hurtful enough. i was strange, wore a lot of black, was naturally very pale and had severe social anxiety - as i still do today. but none of that was as painful as watching one of my best friends get harassed far more than i did, by students and teachers alike. she was always very quiet, fairly boyish (gorgeous in my opinion, but that only helped so much). i have very little respect for the school system as a whole due to what i witnessed with her. students would yell things like "dyke", "butch", and other similar things at her right in front of faculty, and they would do nothing. if i were there, i would often respond to these people with obscene finger gestures or a fairly profane comment, and *I* would be the one who was chastised, given detention, they even attempted to force me to APOLOGIZE. obviously, i did not. at one point, my friend (her name is julia) was doodling on her notebook in her science class. she was drawing jewish stars. no, she's not jewish. just doodling. her teacher walked by her desk, picked them up, looked at them, scowled and put them back down. by the time she got home from school that day, there was a message from her family's PASTOR on the phone, saying that this teacher had contacted him and told him that she was drawing SATANIC symbols on her property. !?! julia tried talking to him about it, confronted him, which resulted in an argument where she was given detention (OUTSIDE of school hours) and he attempted to kick her out of the class and fail her. ...this was obviously some kind of personal attack, as it's so irrational. julia tried to go higher up to get it taken care of, and the best she got was being allowed to stay in the class. they did nothing else. after that, her homework was often "accidently" lost and she barely passed the class. **violet wrote** > Simon wrote (quoting me): > > "This is an amazing story... > > A police officer was on the 82nd floor when the building > underneath him > > collapsed. He rode the debris all the way to the ground. His > injuries? > > Broken legs and ankles. > > But he's ALIVE. From the *82nd fucking floor*. > > Truly a miracle." > > > >has there been anything more on this? > > > Yeah. Sadly, this turned out to be a hoax. there are a lot of stories going around like that. i actually heard a radio interview with the manager of the site http://www.truthorfiction.com where he mentioned the above story, as well as a photograph that was being circulated with a man standing on top of the first building, with the plane right behind it, about to hit. this was also a hoax. if you're curious about more of these, this is a really good site. they stay really up to date. **bethany wrote** > I still don't understand how people can experience a national > tragedy and their first response is, "gonna hang up my > American flag!" I don't know. it just doesn't seem like a natural > progression to me. it doesn't HELP anything, except to assauge > our national conciousness and perhaps sell us on the idea that this > bombing is the only way to preserve our way of life. i completely agree... and in fact, i think the blatant display of blind patriotism is doing more harm than good... don't get me wrong, i was extremely moved by the way the country pulled together, and i do believe that solidarity is necessary right now... but, especially living where i was when all this happened (fargo, ND), i have ran across so many people who see "god bless america!" and they think "yeah! god bless americans!" and then they turn it into "god bless white people and abuse the hell of anyone who isn't anglo saxon like me!" ...it's just giving off a very wrong idea. i see the signs that say "be strong" and "united we stand" and i think, yeah, that's the right idea. but "god bless america"? it doesn't make sense to me. a lot of these people don't even really know what they're saying... to them, the phrase means "crush anyone who questions our system. god bless america, because WE'RE THE BEST." i think that's a dangerous thought process right now. well... my first post turned into a long one... on a random note, has anyone heard of sigor ros? they're an icelandic band and they're WONDERFUL. also... and this is REALLY important to me, and maybe it's not appropriate for the tori list, but i'm sure someone will tell me if it's not. my brother is in a really wonderful, barely known, up-n-commin' band and, yes, i'm biased, but regardless, they're one of my alltime favourite bands. they're folky. PLEASE check them out. i think you'll dig. http://www.pounktry.com ... if you check out the mp3's, make sure to listen to 2NForeign, To Walk Away, Made For Use, or Can't Stand Easily. they're my favourites. make sure to tell me what you think if you check them out. with tons of love in a hard candy shell, jewel. ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. -o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o [top] Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 00:07:57 -0700 From: Violet <fluffy@annihilist.com> To: rdtrn@torithoughts.org Subject: cigarette covers My mother sent this to me. My *MOTHER*. Two elderly ladies were outside their nursing home, having a smoke, when it started to rain. One of the ladies pulled out a condom, cut off the end, put it over her cigarette, and continued smoking. The lady asked, "What's that?" "A condom," the other lady responded. "This way my cigarette doesn't get wet." "Where did you get it?" the other lady asked. "You can get them at any drugstore." The next day, the first lady hobbled herself down to the local drugstore and announced to the pharmacist that she wants a box of condoms. The guy looked at her kind of strangely (she is, after all, over 80 years of age), but politely asks what brand she prefers. "It doesn't matter as long as it fits a Camel." The pharmacist fainted. Violet xoxox -o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o [top] Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 01:36:32 -0700 (PDT) From: winterlion <winterlion@fsj.net> To: "RDT Right Now [yes yes :]" <rdtrn@torithoughts.org> Subject: nonlinear I think I've gone completely nonlinear. Surreal life is... Got a fun complement today - got told by this nice lady I'm the -strangest- person she's ever met pretty much. *g*. So I talk in funny voices sometimes, what of it. Doesn't everyone? (and mix english, dutch, german, french, and sometimes japanese with regular conversation :) Ach terribly surreal day. I'll be catching up on mail soon. But just in case I haven't mentioned it, I'm kinda nonlinear at the moment so not everything written from me will be terribly rational. *deep sigh* (may be homeless in 2 weeks - more or less. Big pain finding work) Oh I'll still have places to -stay-, just no home. Big diff. I'm not going onto the streets again - friends and family won't let me *g*. G'day, eh? :) - Winterlion PS: Hope all y'all have better luck than me this last while. -- May all your dreams be satisfying ones! What is courage now? Is it just to go until we're done? Men may call us heroes when they say we've won but if we should fail, how then... What is courage now? - Fellowship Going South by Leslie Fish sung by Julia Ecklar Member in log, log standing of the Mad Poet's Society. Trying to bring truth from beauty is Winterlion. find at this <a href="http://geocities.com/winterlion">winterlions' page</a> -o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o [top] Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 01:38:47 -0700 From: "h." <orphea@pacbell.net> To: cheefooska@hotmail.com, "'RDT Right Now'" <rdtrn@torithoughts.org> Subject: eye i, aye! aye! aye! oh juan juan juan... you break my heart. i'm sorry you took my comment to emmanuel: "because isn't YOUR nation blameless in domestic and international affairs?" as an attack on mexico and it's people. it couldn't be farther from the truth, really. i'll explain in a minute, but first, i adore you, and you are one of my favorite people on this list. i think you are one of the sweetest souls in our world. and i don't think you're ignorant, as you say. and though you are depressed, you are depressed in an honest perceptive way that anyone who looks out at the world we live in with their eyes wide open --- anyone like that will be depressed, for a while too. so.... i'm really sorry you took my comment the way you did. not only cuz the last thing i want you to feel is personally attacked and hurt because you are mexican, but also because, well, i think YOU actually proved the point i was trying to make much better than i did. which is, i'm heather and i live in the united states. i am an individual living in a country, which better for worse, i try to change for better i think, in the small ways i can. i am not responsible for terrorist hatred any more than i am responsible for george w. declaring war on afghanistan. i didn't bomb hiroshima. i didn't ambush a vietnamese village. i didn't bomb baghdad. these are the horrific things emmanuel invoked in his "rant" -- and maybe on a normal day emmanuel is a nice and generous guy -- but the day he wrote that post he was disgusted with america and americans. i quoted a few excerpts in my post last night, but there were more and i don't feel like posting every bit of evidence in his post....it's just my opinion that he got lost in generalizations and nationalism and used the second person "you" in a way that was insulting and offensive, to me anyway. my ironic tone throughout my post was used to establish two things. first of all, to "ask" emmanuel who the hell he meant by "you <americans>" === because exactly as you point out, america is made up of individuals, who feel (pardon the poetics) adrift at sea right now, not tied to the big steamer chugging away towards war. a lot of us don't fit cleanly into the boxes the media has made for us in the wake of the attacks, and we haven't chosen sides, if we will at all. and a lot of us feel helpless. and those that don't, those of us that have their opinions cast and fired -- well even those people are just like you and me -- they are individuals, and virtually none of them had anything to do or say about american foreign policy recently or in the past. so beyond being insulting and offensive, emmanuel really missed the point in addressing "us." also, because i am just sick and tired of cool little armchair critics lobbing fistfuls of b.s. left and right (yeah, "left" and "right" -- i thought i was "left" but now i think i prefer limbo), i thought i'd expose emmanuel's hypocrisy by showing him the mistake he makes in being sickened by american citizens because he doesn't like their government. he himself is a mexican individual, who just happens to be a citizen of the mexican government. what if i were to find fault with him and his response to world events because his country has done horrible things in the past? i would NOT do that, because i know better. but i don't think he does, and that's why i said what i did, to show him that mistake by turning it around on him and revealing his own hypocrisy. it was a rhetorical tool for an argument --- and i meant in no way to suggest that he didn't have a right to his opinion because his government has been awful too. it was meant actually, to prove the very point that you make in your letter -- that is, we are all individuals. we are not our governments. i've been obsessed with this concept ever since september 11th... how easily a single person can be confused with a big entity or an idea, and how devastating that is when 6000 individuals are slaughtered because of that. and then my own helpless stupid letters to over 50 u.s. congress people urging restraint and deliberation -- now recycle bin fodder. and i didn't even elect george w. actually most people didnt! what am i DOING here at all? and what can *i* do but sit here and just grieve for the people who died and for the ideal that was shattered in me. the ONLY thing that i have is myself...it's the *only* thing keeping me tethered to sanity; "i am an individual, and don't you dare mistake that." so anyway, sorry for the misunderstanding. you are NOT ignorant, i think you are just undecided. on the same note that the article by r.u. serious that scotch linked to: i was talking with someone recently, who after stating a position of neutrality and confusion, was called a "chicken" by some "liberals." (i put liberals in quotation marks, because i think it's not too liberal to insult someone for taking his time to form an opinion. that's downright restrictive, not liberal). i told him that in fact keeping an open mind and neutral footing was one of the braver things you can do right now. (ha, i say that, cuz i'm neutral right now...isn't that nice of me!) but really it's far too easy to slip into the hippydippy "love will save us" or bloodthirsty "bomb them all" traps when so much is at stake...it's just seems like a simple answer to a complex problem and so is very attractive to a lot of people. it's a lot harder to probe the deepest darkest smelliest depths of yourself (myself, ourselves) to come up with an original response to this. and until that happens (which i think will take a lot longer than a month) then you get to call yourself "undecided." and you're welcome anytime to come over to my house for dinner. redstamen p.s. scotch, hope your flights are safe. maybe after you come back home intact i'll post about the many shitmypants terror panic attacks i've had about flying for years. i have emergency illegal narcotics in my possession... i've used 'em before, and if i have to step foot on a plane in the future, i'll use 'em again. in leiu of those, maybe you can just get shitfaced on vodka tonics on the plane.... -o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o [top] Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 10:25:52 -0400 From: "Bethany Rusen" <hejira@u-town.com> To: "Dipfucks" <rdtrn@torithoughts.org> Subject: alligance? allegence? alligence? simon asked: "on that note, am I the only one feeling like the build up for SLG was a little odd? there was a long build up for ftch but the anticipation of waiting for it didn't wear off as the release date approached. this time, it felt like some of that momentum wasn't there." well, there was that little thing that happened on September 11th that may have put a damper on things.... believe me, when the 18th rolled around, SLG was the last thing on my mind. to add to my last post about the pledge of allegiance, i just heard on the Today show that the city of NY has made the pledge mandatory in all their public schools. how....wonderful. Jessica Parsons ranted: "I'm also really tired of this pro-peace movement. 5,000 people in this country were killed so some fucking terrorists could advance their cause against the US. They go so far as to die for that cause. Why don't people support defending this country?" I don't believe that this "America Strikes Back" deal is the right way to go about retaliating for Sept 11th. But I highly doubt the people who feel the same way I do are in favor of crawling under a rock and not defending ourselves. I just don't think this is the way to do it. I don't think my philosophy towards this whole deal is "pro-peace" but rather "pro-there has to be other options". "If the entire population of my university was killed and I was the only person alive, I wouldn't say "well, even though I know who did this, I shouldn't hurt them because that would be me just performing the same horrible act." No! I'd find them and try to inflict pain on them! I realize that we can never ever get rid of terrorism but the Taliban deserves all the bombs it gets." Yes, the Taliban deserves all the bombs it gets. And the impoverished people of Afghanistan probably deserve them too, right? We have a virtual information blackout right now in regards to what's really going on over there, but even if they aren't telling us, there are most likely innocent people who have been killed and will continue to be killed. A person I love was working a block away from the Trade Center when the planes hit, and for a couple hours I wasn't sure if he was okay. I am sad and hurting so much from all of this that I don't have it in me to want to hurt anyone who did this to me. To us. I probably never will. I have yet to get angry about any of this. Maybe that's why I have this reaction. I want to heal, I want everyone to heal, and most people think that hurting them back will do that. I think once this "war" is over and the smoke clears, we will be right back where we started. -bethany ___________________________________________________________ Bethany Rusen, renaissance woman (talent and pretension for hire) hejira, an online journal : http://www.u-town.com/hejira =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= "Some people move at a speed that allows them to replace loss. Some just accumulate. Some accumulate and write about it. The past is a good book. The present is where you really get to fall in love, some write about that. Anyway, as my sister the evolutionary biologist remarked the other day, hindsight is 50/50. The other half of the story must be lying around somewhere near by." - kate jacobs =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= o-o-o o-o-o o-o-o o-o-o o-o-o o-o-o o-o-o o-o-o o-o-o o-o-o *** When The Pin Is Pulled, Mr. Grenade Is Not Our Friend digest *** To POST messages to this list: <rdtrn@torithoughts.org> Can't figure out how to SUB, UNSUB, or CHANGE ADDRESSES? Send a message to <rdtrn-request@torithoughts.org> with "help" as the subject. Digest PROBLEMS or QUESTIONS? Contact: <admin@torithoughts.org> Want your BIRTHDAY announced on RDTRN in 2001? Visit the registration form located at http://www.torithoughts.org/RDTRN/birthday.html RDTRN SITE AND ARCHIVES: http://www.torithoughts.org/rdtrn RDTRN'S SUBLIMINAL THOUGHTS (you can't see this): http://www.torithoughts.org/rdtrn/subliminal/ For information on joining the TORITOUR list: Send a blank message to <tour@torithoughts.org> and you'll receive an instruction file. 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