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From:
rdtrn@torithoughts.org
Date:
Sat, 22 Mar 2003 03:19:10 -0800
Subject:
RDT Right Now #1805
To:
Recipient List Suppressed: ;
Do not hit reply to unsubscribe. To unsub, send a message to:
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with "unsubscribe" in the subject and body.
o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o
Really Deep Thoughts Right Now Volume 03 : Issue #1805
.
o - O - O - O - O - O - O - O - o
. o o .
o o
O "Thoughts right now... O
o What will become of me, o
o Become of her, become of we?" o
. o o .
O O
O - o - o - o - o - o - o - o - O
o .
o
o
o
Tori Amos, "Thoughts"
In this issue:
o-o-o-o-o-o-o
On the Eve of War - A Poem [ "Beth Coulter" <betheqt@voicenet.co ]
Imagine... [ ericwithac@t-online.de (Eric Thelen ]
Peace for the Troops [ "Beth Coulter" <betheqt@voicenet.co ]
Cowboys [ Brad Shultz <springhaze@comcast.net ]
Let's Play Nice [ "Beth Coulter" <betheqt@voicenet.co ]
Replies (yes, I do that also) [ "Beth Coulter" <betheqt@voicenet.co ]
imagine... [ Violet <fluffy@annihilist.com> ]
lottery [ Succubus Megan <Abulia@imaterrorist ]
The Changing World [ Cyndi S Crawford <cyndi.crawford@ju ]
Missed a digest? Pick up a copy at the RDTRN archives:
http://www.torithoughts.org/rdtrn/archives
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[top]
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 16:47:18 -0500
From: "Beth Coulter" <betheqt@voicenet.com>
To: "RDT Right Now" <rdtrn@torithoughts.org>
Subject: On the Eve of War - A Poem
On the Eve of War ~~ March 19, 2003
Lady Liberty, where are you
Now when we need you most?
Justice tempered with mercy,
Protecting the huddled masses
Yearning to be free...
Who Are We
To prosecute the victims
To terrorize the children
To kill the suffering
And bomb the dead...
Where Is Your Head
Mr. President?
Here goes our Army
Our Air Force, Marines and tanks
With bombs that can only
Destroy dear Mother Earth.
Who uses so much explosive
When you claim to not want to kill
The innocents, those civilians
If those bombs don't, What Will?
George! Wake Up!!
Your country is calling,
Is pleading and begging
In the streets by the millions -
Stop the Madness,
Don't Invade!
You can't change Countries this way.
The Media is blatting prepackaged crap
Propaganda to mess with our minds
For the sole purpose to create fear --
A fearful population
Will not question
A massive march to war
To free a fearful population
Who cannot question
As war marches through their door.
I apologize Iraq,
My country knows not what they do
I'm sorry for your sorrow
That arrives on the morrow
I wish that I could help you...
For You've suffered enough
these past 20 years,
Sorry my country is adding to fears.
So Lady Liberty, what can we do?
How can we change the current world view?
Once a great country
Defender of the weak,
Now a great bully
In whom no justice can we seek.
Lift your lamp high and proud
And guide us with your light
To make our voices ring out loud
And help us do what's right.
3/19/03
Beth Coulter
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[top]
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 00:27:15 +0100
From: ericwithac@t-online.de (Eric Thelen)
To: "RDT Right Now" <rdtrn@torithoughts.org>
Subject: Imagine...
Hi everybody.
Roxanne pointed out:
> French companies own most of the oil operations in Iraq.
> France and Germany supplied Iraq with nucleur reactor materials up until
> the Gulf War. (I couldn't find anything suggesting that they were still
> supplying them--but it wouldn't suprise me).
> Iraq also bought from them scientific research on biological and
> chemical weapons production.
>
> You can't fool me by saying that they just want a peaceful solution.
> They just want to save their own asses.
Interesting.
So, in the logic of Mr. Bush, once you are done with Iraq, you will send the
troops a little North to France and Germany?
Oh wait, further 'research' might lead to finding out that the U.S. were
quite supportive of Saddam Hussein when he first came to power in Iraq and
when he provided a welcome counterbalance to the regime in Iran.
Further research might lead to finding out that the U.S. helped Iraq to get
some of the (few...) weapons that they are now running into and want them to
'disarm'.
Let me quote from an article from the Washington Post from February 1998
(http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/inatl/longterm/iraq/stories/exiles0223
98.htm), which a little Internet search easily brought up - by the way
probably an article that even Brad would like because of its overall
tone...:
"Throughout the 1980s, the United States supplied Saddam Hussein with
billions of dollars' worth of weapons, technology and food to help his
country fight Iran. By 1990, Iraq reportedly owed the United States $80
billion dollars."
"The American efforts to weaken Saddam Hussein have done more harm than
good, the exiles said. Sanctions have kept food from children and have
deprived hospitals of medicine. Malnutrition and illness among children have
become endemic in Iraq, The Post has reported. Starving people can't rise up
against the regime, the Iraqis said."
U.S. tax money (your money, maybe...) has paid for some of the weapons that
Saddam has later used to kill his own people.
I am not blaming anybody for this - but since you were blaming France and
Germany, you should consider this.
So, who's evil in this game of power? Is it really that black and white?
Living in Germany, I can tell you that the vast majority of people is not
trying to 'save their own asses'. But many people feel that we were not at a
point when U.S. soldiers, Iraqi civilians and Iraqi soldiers should get
killed. We feel that while we could not be satisfied with Saddam's responses
to the pressure imposed by the United Nations, we were on a pretty good way.
And we are not afraid that Iraq would set the world on fire at this time.
The situation seemed to be under control - although it clearly was not
really acceptable. But many of us feel that this additional killing is not
already necessary. And we feel very strongly that decisions need to be taken
on the level of the United Nations and that it is not only the one, who has
the most power, who should decide. Bush has violated the world-wide
agreement that decisions on war and peace need to be taken by the United
Nations Security Council, simply because he was not able to get the vote
that he wanted, and this is being strongly criticized over here.
Brad attended a significant Tori show on the evening of war and wrote (I
appreciate that he actually goes back to writing his own opinion rather than
'just' posting other people's words...):
> She sang Imagine as an obvious anti war song. Since when is Tori some
> kind of political science expert? What are her credentials?
Freedom of speech. Interesting concept. If you have people going to your
concert and listening to you, you may make political statements. People can
still agree with you or not. Tori is as much an 'expert' as you are. Or as
John Lennon was. But some people seem to have more influence on others than
others have.
I am glad that Tori playing Imagine had some effect on you - even if it was
not an entirely positive one. It is a powerful song, isn't it. Makes you
think.
Tori actually made Brad turn red:
> And when she sang with apparent conviction the line, "imagine no
> possessions; it's easy if you try" with seeming conviction, I turned
> red. So she is going to give up her posessessions? Her houses? Her
> vehicles? Her pots and pans? Her buses? Her Prada diaper bags? This
> is ridiculous in the extreme.
>
> Typical lib. She isn't going to give up her possessions. She wants you
> to give up yours.
Well, maybe this is a little bit about who starts... And Tori at least gives
e.g. some of her possessions to RAINN. Of course, she is still rich and
earns her wealth.
But that is not my point: Imagine is utopia. It says: "Wouldn't it be nice?"
It could only work, however, if it would be a global concept. Utopia.
But I like your logic, even if it does not necessarily fit with the
intention of the song.
Let's go back to the war situation: You obviously argue that the war is
justified at this time. Would you honestly have the same opinion, if you
would have to fight the war yourself? If you would have to go to Iraq and
risk your own life to liberate the country? Or if you had kids who could get
killed there? I am interested in your response. Would you accept risking
your own death in order to actively 'solve' the Iraq situation? If Bush
would have to fight in the first line, just like in the former battles many
centuries ago, when the leaders were still actively fighting their own wars,
I am sure that there would be lots of diplomacy still going on right now...
So, Mr. Bush has made his decision. Actually, the decision was probably
taken about one year ago.
He did not care about the United Nations. Disappointing - I only 'play' with
you as long as you share my opinion...
So, maybe the U.N. should ask for the disarmament of the Unites States now.
Because the U.S. are quite dangerous if they do not accept the U.N.
consensus as their guiding line. But then again, this is exactly what is
happening. Bush just chose Iraq for slowly getting rid of some of his
weapons. But wait - there are all those weapons inspectors now who are out
of job. Maybe the U.N. should now send them to the U.S., so they can make
sure that the weapons are not being rebuild again after being actively
destroyed in Iraq...
Hint: The last paragraph was meant to be ironic...
Seriously: What is dangerous is the fact that the war on Iraq will force
some other countries to increase their firing power.
Let's face it: Bush orders the attack on Iraq partly because the Iraq is NOT
extremely dangerous at this time - otherwise he would not really dare to
start this war. Iraq is too dangerous to leave Saddam alone - but he is not
dangerous enough to really cause any harm, otherwise Bush could not invade
the country.
So, if I am a non-democratic leader in a country, which is not friends with
the U.S. - and there are some in this world - and if I am also not dangerous
enough to be a real threat, then I will start to work on improving my
killing potential as quickly as possible. I will invest in obtaining the
famous 'weapons of mass destruction' if I don't have any right now. Because
I do not want to be 'next'. This war will not lead to more peace in the
world. It will increase the risk for more war. It will lead to more
dangerous weapons in the world. It will lead to a more dangerous world for
us all.
One more advice: All the information you will get from any side in the
coming weeks has been filtered and is meant to push your minds into a
certain direction. Be critical. Try to check everything you see or hear.
Check different sources, also from other countries, via the Internet. Listen
to international voices. Insist on seeing the pictures yourself. Insist on
hearing the original voices. Form your own opinion. Don't let anybody
manipulate you.
Let's hope that this war will be over very soon. Let's hope that the Iraqi
soldiers will choose to not fight for Saddam and surrender quickly.
Everybody enjoy your lives,
Eric (with a 'c')
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[top]
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 18:38:41 -0500
From: "Beth Coulter" <betheqt@voicenet.com>
To: "RDT Right Now" <rdtrn@torithoughts.org>
Subject: Peace for the Troops
Hey all,
I saw some soldiers talking about their fear of the protestors when they get
home. I believe the biggest fault of the Vietnam movement was the
insistence on abusing the vets. I worked for three years at the Vietnam
Vets Outreach Program ('79 - '82) , and swore I'd never to that to a person.
They go through enough during the fight, and it's a hard thing to refuse to
fight (especially when all you hear is what the government wants you to
hear).
So I thought maybe the Peace Movement should adopt yellow ribbons also, and
send an email to a military member. I pasted the address and what I wrote
(feel free to cut and paste if you want). The men and women in this
horrible criminal action are not to be condemned for believing their
leaders.
Please remember the poor, scared kids marching in the desert while you are
protesting the war.
http://anyservicemember.navy.mil
Hi,
I just wanted you to know that I appreciate your willingness to risk your
life in this very difficult conflict. I know you have heard of the anti-war
protestors. I am a member of a college peace coalition and want you to know
that although I don't support this action, I do support you and want you and
all of the troops to come home alive Now. It's a hard thing for you to do
and I thought I should say thank you, and let you know that Everyone in the
United States supports you, if not what you have to do.
Peace,
"The world is a dangerous place to live;
not because of the people who are evil,
but because of the people who don't do anything about it."
- Albert Einstein
<end Letter>
Now Albert's quote works for everyone. It's just your definition of evil.
Not degrees of evil. Simply what is good and what is evil across the board.
And the yellow ribbons may help those pro-war folks listen a little more,
once they realize we aren't against the soldiers. Cause let's face it, once
you have heard the facts, you must question the rightness of Prez. Bush's
actions.
Peace,
Beth
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought
without accepting it. --Aristotle
www.bethcoulter.com
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[top]
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 18:54:48 +0000
From: Brad Shultz <springhaze@comcast.net>
To: rdtrn@torithoughts.org
Subject: Cowboys
The cowboy story!
Three strangers strike up a conversation in the passenger lounge in
Bozeman, Montana, awaiting their flights. One is an American Indian
passing through from Lame Deer. Another, a cowboy on his way to Billings
for a stock show. The third passenger is a fundamentalist Arab student,
newly arrived at Montana State University from the Middle East.
>Their discussion drifts to their diverse cultures. Soon the two Westerners
>learn that the Arab is a devout, radical Muslim. The conversation falls
>into an uneasy lull.
>The cowboy leans back in his chair, crosses his boots on a magazine table,
>tips his big sweat-stained hat forward over his face. The wind outside
>blows tumbleweeds, and the old windsock flaps; but no plane comes.
> Finally, the American Indian clears his throat and softly he speaks,"Once,
> my people were many, now we are few."
>The Muslim student raises an eyebrow and leans forward, "Once my people
>were few," he sneers, "and now we are many. Why do you suppose that is?"
>
>
The Montana cowboy shifts his toothpick to one side of his mouth and from
the darkness beneath his Stetson says in a drawl, "That's 'cause we ain't
played Cowboys and Muslims yet!
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[top]
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 19:37:17 -0500
From: "Beth Coulter" <betheqt@voicenet.com>
To: "RDT Right Now" <rdtrn@torithoughts.org>
Cc: <rokzane@dimensional.com>
Subject: Let's Play Nice
T'was said by Roxanne (you nutty baker you) :
>>I have a comment on that Pledge of Resistance thing that Beth posted.
Some of it is ridiculous. I'm sorry, but there ARE groups of people in
this world that are evil. They cannot be reasoned with, and if you go
against them, they will attempt to kill you. That's how the world is.<<
The quote is:
"Not by our hearts will we allow whole peoples or countries to be deemed
evil". Not all of anything is all evil. The Iraqi's are not evil, although
Saddam is the closest thing I've ever seen to it. The Jews/Palestinians are
not evil, although Sharon/Arafat is running a close second to Saddam. The
American's are not evil, although George W. Bush surely is (but not all
evil, he has a good point or two, even though I can't find them).
I don't comment about anyone being "ridiculous". I wish you could have
posted your comment without that word, like "I believe there ARE groups..."
without the preface. It was the first thing I saw and almost changed what
you were saying for me. I want to hear your thoughts (and the other
Pro-Bush, Pro-War folks), and I will never attack you for what you say. I
always listen to both sides. I watch Chris Matthews and CNN, and basically
all of cable/network is Pro Government, so I know what those people are
saying. And they sound so rational. But so did Hitler and his henchmen.
So did Lenin. Before making an opinion, one MUST hear both sides (or all
sides) and truly listen to what is being said (or not said). Read the
newspaper Op/Ed columns every day, and you will get a good bilateral view.
Watch BBC while you watch MSNBC.
This is going to be a long war (Iraq is but the first battle, to be followed
with Iran, then N. Korea), and we must respect and entertain each other's
opinions, and disagree with respect should we need to disagree. The war
shouldn't ever lead to a list war. We are all civilized and intelligent
enough to have honest debate.
Friends, Baker Girl?
Fairy Blessings,
Bethey
I'm OK when Everything's not OK
cause it's the Fairies Revenge they say
And I have always been a Fairy.
www.bethcoulter.com
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[top]
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 19:56:11 -0500
From: "Beth Coulter" <betheqt@voicenet.com>
To: "RDT Right Now" <rdtrn@torithoughts.org>
Subject: Replies (yes, I do that also)
>>French companies own most of the oil operations in Iraq.<<
Iraqis own most of the oil operations in Iraq. According to the "Food for
Oil" program, France, Germany and Russia get the majority of their oil from
Iraq, with long term contracts. The US will control those contracts while
the new government is being set up.
>>France and Germany supplied Iraq with nuclear reactor materials up until
the Gulf War. (I couldn't find anything suggesting that they were still
supplying them--but it wouldn't surprise me).<<
And the US supplied chemical, biological and nuclear materials to Iraq from
1979 - 1990, because he was our friend (and he was supposed to be our
puppet, but he's a bad man and didn't obey) against Iran.
>>Iraq also bought from them scientific research on biological and
chemical weapons production.<<
Which the US supplied the materials.
This question has been floating around:
>>what genre of music Tori falls into. <<
I read a great review years ago that called it "Baroque Pop". It works for
me. And I also warn people that it is "trance music", not for background
housecleaning (unless it's "Tori Can't Read").
John as B/4 replied to me:
>>
> The Beth's are taking over the world. You heard it hear first. ;)
Well, it would definitely be an improvement.<<
All of us Beth's thank you and love you for the ego strokes. We all rule,
don't we girls? ;)
Sweet Jessica (Be safe in your travels if you go) said:
>>why would you not evacuate your country if
another leader says "if you don't leave, we're bombing you with all our
wrath" I'd get the fuck out<<
They can't leave because 12 years of economic sanctions have left them
destitute. They can't afford the gas even if they have a car, and it's
several days walk to the border. They would rather try their chances with
their backyard shelters then walk out of the desert where they are sure to
be in between armies. It is so sad. Plus those 2 Million Political
Prisoners people scream about in Iraqi prisons? They are not in prison.
They are handcuffed and chained to every military target in Iraq (men, women
and children of all ages). The US is aware of this, but they are going
ahead with their plans. They are just protestors, they spoke out against
Saddam and now we will kill them to free them. Ain't life grand?
Fairy Blessings,
Bethey
I'm OK when Everything's not OK
cause it's the Fairies Revenge they say
And I have always been a Fairy.
www.bethcoulter.com
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[top]
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 19:31:28 -0800
From: Violet <fluffy@annihilist.com>
To: rdtrn@torithoughts.org
Subject: imagine...
Brad wrote:
>And when she sang with apparent conviction the line, "imagine no
>possessions; it's easy if you try" with seeming conviction, I turned
>red. So she is going to give up her posessessions? Her houses? Her
>vehicles? Her pots and pans? Her buses? Her Prada diaper bags? This
>is ridiculous in the extreme.
>
>Typical lib. She isn't going to give up her possessions. She wants you
>to give up yours.
Yes, Tori is the Antichrist. It's mind control. Run away!
The line isn't about giving things up. It's about imagining a world where
there is no concept of exclusive "mine, mine, mine" ownership of things and
people are able to share as a community so that no one has to go without
things like houses, vehicles, pots & pans, etc. It's about "ours" rather
than "mine" and "yours." There have been (and still are) societies that
live this way, as a group supportive of all rather than as every man for
himself.
I'd like to live this way, but I don't know if I could because sadly I
would have to draw the line at sharing my favorite cow coffee mug, which I
have photographed and put up just to make you all jealous:
http://www.missviolet.com/flotsam/cowcup/
Touch my mug and I will touch your tonsils.
Violet
xoxox
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[top]
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 13:16:32 -0800 (PST)
From: Succubus Megan <Abulia@imaterrorist.com>
To: rdtrn@torithoughts.org
Subject: lottery
Hola mes amies!
The following story, discovered on the internet and probably already
well-known to half of you on the list, is SO! FUCKING! BRILLIANT! that I
had to share it.
http://www.underthesun.cc/Classics/Jackson/lottery/
READ! READ! READ!
Shirley Jackson is friggin GREAT!
How Now, Brown Cow?
Megan Christine Auffart
***************************************
"I like money better than people. People can so rarely be exchanged for
goods and/or services!"
- Buffy the Vampire Slayer
***************************************
http://www.angelfire.com/poetry/abulia/
_____________________________________________________________
Sign up for FREE insane email from tshirthell.com's E-Mail Hell at
http://www.tshirthell.com
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-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o
[top]
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 17:53:41 -0500
From: Cyndi S Crawford <cyndi.crawford@juno.com>
To: rdtrn@torithoughts.org
Subject: The Changing World
I just got this from a friend of mine. I like it. ^^
"You know the world has truly changed when the top rapper is white, the
top golfer is black, the tallest basketball player is Chinese, and the
Germans don't want war."
Sincerely, Cyndi S. Crawford
http://www.icenine.org/cyndi/ --
http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/368/ciara_blaze.html --
http://learntothink0.tripod.com/learntothinkagain/ --
http://www.geocities.com/keyyooo/clique.html --
http://www.cafepress.com/cp/store/store.aspx?storeid=kittitude
Tori Amos' response when asked to describe herself in five words: "I. Do.
Not. Describe. Myself."
________________________________________________________________
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